I don't drive enough for a diesel?

Fann Linn

I'm thinking of changing my car and happened to mention it to the lad who services my current car which is a petrol Toyota.

He told me that what ever I go for I should make sure that I stick with petrol as I don't drive enough for a diesel engine.

When I thought about what he said I worked it out that normally on a Saturday the car is out for on average 100km and on a Sunday no more than 50km. Apart from two weeks in the summer when I take it to the UK or the continent for the annual holidays that is the full amount of my driving.

Monday to Friday I use my employer's van.

My question is what is deemed enough driving to warrant buying a diesel? Thanks.

BlakeS94

If you're only driving the car for 150km a week get a petrol, your mechanic is right.

Diesel cars are more expensive to buy and more expensive to maintain.

kirving

Overall, diesel engines and their emission controls tend to be much more complicated than petrols, and if you only do 150km/week, you aren't going to see much benefit.

The decision between petrol and diesel is as much about the journey profile, as it is about the overall milage.

Say you do Dublin-Galway-Dublin every weekend - 400km round trip made up of 2X 200km journeys. Diesel is probable best because you'll likely make fuel savings.

But if you did say Bray - Dublin Airport every day for work - 460km total, made up of 10X 46km journeys. Petrol is probably best because even though you're doing high milage, most of the milage will be when the engine is just warming up.

Diesel engines emit more particles which are captured in a Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF). When the engine and exhaust are up to temperature, the particulate that has built up is actually burned off (in a way that does not cause more particles), but this takes time to occur. So if you're doing high milage, but in small increments, the particulate will build up, but not get a chance to burn off, and can cause a clogged DPF.

If you only did a 5km school run once a day in a diesel, it would take a long time for the DPF to become clogged, so the likelihood is that you would have done a singe long journey and burnt off the particulate.

Akrasia

If you have a driveway to install a home charger, get an electric car. You can get plenty that can easily do more than double your daily requirements and you can charge at home for a fraction of the cost of petrol or Diesel.

(way cheaper to service too)

mrcheez

I have a 2018 Opel Corsavan diesel that I only drive occasionally but never had issues and not expensive to service when I go once a year.

Didn't have a choice as I wanted a commercial vehicle for circa 12K but electric was too expensive, and no petrol options in that price range for some bizarre reason.

I do try to take it out for 50km spins every couple of weeks or so

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931363#Comment_121931363

"But if you did say Bray - Dublin Airport every day for work - 460km total, made up of 10X 46km journeys. Petrol is probably best because even though you're doing high milage, most of the milage will be when the engine is just warming up."

Your experience is that it takes more than 23km for a petrol engine to reach temperature? Not my experience at all.

Fann Linn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931363#Comment_121931363

Thanks for the full explanation.

dazzler101

Interesting thread.

Thinking of a new car myself, Diesels are pricier to buy and maintain but they do last longer and engines seem to be more robust.

I do 56kms daily for work 5 times a week and have though about petrol's, but a diesel car would last me a lot longer

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931387#Comment_121931387

To clarify, if it were a diesel. Probably not "most", but a much higher proportion than would be the case on 2X 200km journeys.

I worked in a place which was 35km from the nearest city - so had a load of commuters doing high mileage, but relatively short individual journeys, and quite a few of my colleagues had DPF issues, in various different models of car.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931387#Comment_121931387

Any internal combustion engine car is worn more heavily in the first few minutes before it gets to full operating temperature. And the life cycle of any vehicle is affected by the number of engine cycles as much as it is by the total number of KMs the car drives

A petrol car is better than a diesel for mostly short journeys because modern Diesels require the filters to be cleaned via a cycle that only kicks in automatically on longer journeys, and due to the higher costs in servicing for Diesels vs Petrol engines, but both fuel types are prematurely worn from a lot of short hop journeys where the engine starts from cold, warms up and then cools down again multiple times in the same day.

This is what electric cars are excellent at. Stop start short journeys multiple times during the day

In our household, we have a Petrol ICE car that is only kept for long trips a few times a month, and the vast majority of our daily driving is done in a cheap electric runabout that we charge at home every day. (if we spent more on a longer range BEV, we'll eventually ditch the ICE altogether)

This means the ICE car lasts longer and needs less servicing, and ICE cars are also at their most fuel inefficient in short urban driving, so when we do drive the volvo, it is on longer motorway or B roads where the BEV is out of it's comfort zone and the ICE is in it's preferred environment.

rob316

Honestly given the level of diesels on the road now vs petrol, that line is a bit of a wife's tale at this stage. I drive about 30km a day around city and occasional long trip, I've always had diesel and never issues.

JustAPoorDreamer

@OP You do not need a diesel. Petrol or electric much better for your needs abd the planet too.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931460#Comment_121931460

This is because the DPF won't ever get to finish the cleaning cycle in such a short commute

For a DPF to regenerate, you'd need to be regularly doing a run of about 50-80kms minimum at about dual carriage way speeds to get the temperatures high enough to burn off the soot, the longer you leave it, the worse it will get. Many cars have an active regeneration cycle that can spend fuel to burn off the soot, but if your commute is short, you'll often end up interrupting this cycle by reaching the end of your journey while it's still in progress and this can be a waste of fuel at best, or even make the soot problem worse

Montage of Feck

Most people don't need a diesel but there is very little choice in the used market.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931510#Comment_121931510

This is a problem, way less choice of used petrol cars. They can be gotten, just takes a lot more work to find a good one

Alun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931510#Comment_121931510

From carzone.ie ...

JVince

The main advantage of diesel is registered vat people/companies can claim the vat back

You can't do that on petrol.

So someone doing 40,000 km a year would use about 2500-2800l of diesel and save €1,000.

Add in about 20% better fuel economy and that's €2,000.

Then deduct extra servicing, so probably a net €1500 saving @ 40,000 km.

At 20,000km and not vat registered, saving is probably nil.

mrcheez

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931531#Comment_121931531

possibly why I was limited in choice when looking for a commercial vehicle... saying that though the Corsavan diesel has been fantastic. No problems.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931531#Comment_121931531

That's mental, I had to look that up to see if it was true. What's the reasoning for that considering most (I think) non work vehicles are diesel now?

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931524#Comment_121931524

It totally depends on what you're looking for. Petrol dominates in small hatchbacks.

Remove hatchbacks from the mix, and it's over 2:1 Diesel:Petrol.

ofcork

I was the same in 2014 wanted a 2012 petrol avensis and there wasn't a single one for sale ended up buying a diesel had to get the dpf done a few years ago but been reliable and passes all NCT even today flew it 😃.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931448#Comment_121931448

MY mothers car is a 2010 1.4L Petrol Fiesta with almost 160,000 Kms and I drove it yesterday for a good bit and I was very surprised at how well it drove given it's age, I drive a 2 Tonne EV hatchback, yes you read that right, Hatchback and you definitely notice the huge weight, it doesn't made driving exciting that's for sure, in a straight line maybe.....

Anyway, patrols can last a long time if maintained properly, my Aunt has a 00 MK 1 1.0L Yaris with probably well over 200,000 Kms and still going strong.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931503#Comment_121931503

I've been driving EV since 2015, I wouldn't say EV is better for the environment compared to a diesel driving on HVO100 diesel.

The destruction to land to mine lithium is massive and billions of gallons, not litres but gallons of fresh water get contaminated during lithium production.

Then there's cobalt...... none of this is environmentally friendly but the issues is that many who only think about Co2 as pollution and the only threat to the Earth can't and won't see this when looking at a shiny new EV with fancy high resolution screens, all big on tech but they are not that big on credibility.

Can't deny EV is cheap to run but cost to buy is high. EV not as cheap now due to massive electricity price increases and public charge points are very expensive.

I can't see how running a diesel or older diesel is less environmentally friendly running on HVO100 and it's probably even more environmentally friendly than any EV.

Will EV be the future diesel gate ? will we have EV gate ?

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121932002#Comment_121932002

And if your looking for a slightly older vehicle (2008 - 2012 for example) the ratio of diesel to petrol becomes even greater

Mad_Lad

I should also add that depreciation on EV is shocking ! pun intended, this is my 3rd EV and my last for the foreseeable future !

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121935094#Comment_121935094

Do you think they make diesel engines and diesel and engine oil from flowers and clouds.

Flinty997

A new diesel or petrol should be much cleaner than older cars. But then there's lots of NCT failures on emissions.

Modern cars don't seem as trouble free as cars from the a couple of decades ago. Be that ICE or EV.

If you get lucky and have no problems that great. But thats not everyone's experience.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121939872#Comment_121939872

No but making engines is a lot cheaper and there are many on the road so if they can use this renewable fuel and keep them on the road many years longer then this is much more environmentally friendly, The Government need to step in and reduce the tax.

Everything we do impacts the environment some way or another, batteries aren't going to save the planet. Electrics are good for local air quality especially when the electricity comes from renewable sources but the manufacturing of the batteries is toxic, Cobalt exposure is bad for health and it effects the miners and also the Children who work in the mines. Lithium production contaminates vast amounts of fresh water and rivers Then these minerals are shipped to China to be made in Factories who have atrocious records when it comes to environmental contamination, in China there have been cased of river contamination from lithium contaminating drinking water.

The Co2 footprint of producing EV batteries is 46% vs 26 for ICE cars, almost 4 tonnes of Co2 are produced roughly for every single EV produced then add to that the Co2 released for charging the batteries. A EV has to drive on average 8 years to offset the CO2 from production.

For every 1 tonne of lithium, enough for roughly 100 EVs you need 2 Million litres of fresh water.

The South American Lithium triangle consisting of Chile, Argentina, and Bolivia, experienced heavy water depletion due to intensive lithium extraction in the area. In Chile alone, 65% of the region’s water was used for lithium extraction. The US state of Nevada recently saw protests on account of the Lithium Americas Project due to the prophesied use of enormous quantities of groundwater. 

Nickel and cobalt have similar reputations. Satellite analysis in Cuba has shown a devoid of life in over 570 hectares of land and contamination of over 10 kilometres of coastline where nickel and cobalt mines are present. The Philippines had to shut down 23 mines, many producing nickel and cobalt, because of the environmental degradation that it caused.

Most of this is from Earth.org.

I'm not anti EV but now that as I've been driving EV since 2015 but when the novelty wears off and the rose tinted glasses come off and you do more research and as more data becomes available you realise that batteries is worse for the environment, far worse than using Bio diesel generated from renewable sources.

I installed a wood pellet stove around 1.5 years ago, does this mean it's bad to be using cheaper wood pellets made from local timber industry or is it better using foreign oil ? same with HVO100, it's better to use more locally produced bio fuel or European made from truly renewable sources.

Eventually perhaps we will see Efuel, this is made from Co2 either extracted from the atmosphere or from industry and using hydrogen, the fuel is compatible with existing petrol and diesel cars, not an efficient process but when made from Renewable and Nuclear energy it can be very green, questions remain as to whether or not Efuel can be made in sufficient quantities.

Hydrogen can be burned directly in ICE cars with modification, Hydrogen can be produced rather easily but storage remains an issue this is mitigated by making Efuel, traditional easy to store liquid fuels and you can refill in a few mins. Quite expensive at the moment though but if they can scale it up it would make it cheaper.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121939877#Comment_121939877

cars in general have got far too much tech and it's adding a lot to the cost of a car. I say give people who want it the option but let people pick what they want, half this tech will be obsolete in a decade, if your big fancy screen dies, can you get a new one, how much will it cost ? what do you do when the screen controls half the functions or more of the car and you can't access basic stuff because there are no proper dedicated analogue controls ? we've been conditioned into thinking digital is better.

I've no issue with screens as long as they are kept to media and sat nav.

It's the same story with emissions controls, too much electrics and now of course they are adding the complexity of hybrid tech to many cars adding big cost, a 1.0L yaris or 1.2L Clio could be got cheap, not .you got to pay 27K for a clio or Yaris due to the hybrid tech, what use is this for the people who would drive the 1.0L or 1.2 ? they could get 5.0L/100 kms or more anyway.

Bring back simplicity, everything now is screens and tech, same happening motorbikes.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940698#Comment_121940698

Over the lifetime of a car the EV is more environmentally friendly. Lithium and cobalt free batteries are only a matter of time.

Not entirely sure why you think making engines and oil, coal for the last 100 hasn't had any effect on the environment. We have cities that have horrific air quality.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-polluted_cities_by_particulate_matter_concentration

https://envhistnow.com/2022/08/19/nation-toxicity-and-care-exploring-chemical-kinship-in-cubas-latest-environmental-disaster/

"...On August 5, lighting hit a storage tank at Cuba’s largest oil depot in Matanzas province, igniting a fire that spread rapidly—causing a total of three explosions and actively burning for more than 72 hours..."

People seem to under the illusion that all that steel, Iron, oil and plastic had no environmental impact when manufacturing an ICE vehicle or transporting all that fuel around the planet. We do the same thing with food due to globalization. The problem with alternative fuels is that it's keeping all the issues with infrastructure.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121939834#Comment_121939834

No offence I think that's really your issue with all this. Got burnt with deprecation in the price war that started in 2023. I get that it's understandable. It's like a property crash.

As for the OP they simply aren't doing the mileage for a diesel. If they are doing infrequent road trip holidays then petrol is the logical choice. You could make a hybrid or EV work either but might not want the hassle.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940730#Comment_121940730

Well I agree with you on the simplicity. But I have to say some tech is nice, streaming music, rear camera etc. Automatic Cruise Control.

The Dacias or model eUp or similar give a lot of simplicity with modern reliability.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940848#Comment_121940848

You look at EV with rose tinted glasses like I used to but the reality is that battery production is far from clean and then the potential catastrophe of battery disposal in the years to come.

And I was talking diesel with HVO100 renewable diesel not diesel made from oil so we all know the track record of big oil.

I never said making engines has no impact but lets be honest, if we have a fleet of diesels that can use renewable fuels going forward why not use it and save all these cars from potentially becoming useless, that would be a scandalous waste. Efuel can be used in petrol and diesels but ultimately the HVO100.

You say the overall lifetime of EV is cleaner, it's not, it takes 8 years to break even from the production of EV for Co2 then the electricity comes from mostly Gas in Ireland and a lot of this emissions in production ends up in other countries with contamination to vast amounts of land and rivers and drinking water.

2 million litres of fresh water for every tonne of lithium is crazy !

I'll believe we'll have lithium and cobalt free batteries when I can buy it. But perhaps going forward they can make a car like the BMW i3 where you can have a big battery and ICE backup generation that runs off eco fuel and to hell then with a charging network. That would be good.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940911#Comment_121940911

Well that's the thing, offer all the tech to those who want it, there are more and more complaints about screens in cars and no proper controls, you don't need a screen to stream and you can just use siri or whatever, screens are distracting especially when you have to go through menus, in fact, it's quite ridiculous and God knows how many deaths have been as a result from people looking at screens rather than the road.

Take Bjorn on youtube for example, he's probably drove for many hrs at this stage while he plays with the infotainment or his phone. It's ridiculous to watch.

The E.U has ordered that from 2026 all cars mush have dedicated buttons for things like hazzards and stalk for indicator and wipers. But it's not good enough, this should extend to climate, radio and all the common things people use that can just reach over. Voice control is not a proper solution. Maybe if you're in the car on your own. Haptic buttons are crap, I hate them, there's lots of complaints about them too.

I mean what's gone wrong that car manufacturers have to reinvent the wheel ? only this time they're going backwards.

I bet a lot of people would be happy to be able to knock a few K off the price of the car and add what they want. I have a camera front and rear but I rarely look at it, I'm happy enough with the parking sensors.

Everyone has a phone these days so they could make a place to fit a phone on the dash that can charge it wireless or wired and then let the phone take over the satnav and media rather than have a big screen on the dash, that's just madness and is bad for road safety.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940890#Comment_121940890

It will be everyone's issue come trade in !

A hybrid would be a waste, no more benefit to diesel really but added cost in some cases that he doesn't need for his driving especially with the use of a company van on weekdays.

If I were doing this kind of mileage I would be happy with an older 2.0L naturally aspirated petrol, cheap cheerful and will run forever when properly maintained. In fact i'm not doing huge mileage myself these days meaning Diesel , hybrid or EV are not really needed. I do like the idea of driving on HVO100. It's a little expensive still though.

There again is the Outlander, the missus fills it around once a month, for the last 203 years she's being doing mostly short local runs and it's running fine, but at the time she was doing a lot more mileage I very much doubt she's buy another Diesel now with the mileage she's doing.

Flinty997

Rose tinted glasses. Lol. I'm not the posting about only the good of one thing and the bad of another.

That's 8yrs of a cleaner local environment. HVO100 still has emissions.

I think most peoples ideal would be solar where they are not being held hostage by price rise by energy suppliers. It can remove the need for a massive distribution network.

"...Even when combined with other liquid and gaseous biofuels, there isn’t nearly enough biomass to create enough sustainable fuel to meet the world’s demand for freight transportation..."

Some BYD EVs are Cobalt free.

Cobalt and Lithium are also used for billions of consumer electronics.

https://envirotecmagazine.com/2023/01/31/cobalt-free-lithium-ion-battery-cathode-brings-fairer-phones-into-view/

THere are no simplistic quick fixes, one size fits all with this.