What is a woman? **Mod Note In Post #294**

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029479#Comment_122029479

Haven't read it, don't know. I asked you what science says about transitioning gender, you never replied - what does the Cass report say about transitioning gender?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029535#Comment_122029535

"He wasn't asked what a woman is…." - and therin lies the irrelevance.

The problem here is an "appeal to authority": you don't say HOW his point contradicts mine, and it actually doesn't.

Dr. Robert Winston also said in an interview with Piers Morgan that you CAN change gender but you can't change biological sex (something I'd agree with - apologies if I was unclear).

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=413574834126288 (about the 2.00 mark)

——

You guys are both making a case against specifically surgical transitioning and therin lies the block: surgery does not have to be involved for transition. Scientifically or legally. I honestly don't know enough about the surgical process to comment about it.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029628#Comment_122029628

You need to know what the Cass report says about transitioning gender then, otherwise your opinion is based on ignorance. Which was my point about your claim as to what various unnamed scientists supposedly think.

Even the Guardian accepts that Cass says that social transitioning (never mind medicating someone) is not a neutral act, but rather reinforces the dysphoria and makes it harder for the child to "retransition" back to its natal sex.

Cass is also clear that socially transitioning a child – treating them as though they are of the opposite sex – is a psychological intervention with potentially lasting consequences and an insufficient evidence base

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/14/hilary-cass-review-gender-trans-young-people-children-nhs-evidence#:~:text=Cass%20is%20also%20clear%20that,pre%2Dpubertal%20children%20this%20decision

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029649#Comment_122029649

I think we're going off on another tangent here!

My point is: transitioning gender is scientifically possible.

My question is: are you sure the Cass report contradicts this?

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029586#Comment_122029586

Yep. at the end of the day, they're just words

What you identify as doesn't affect me in any way, I call myself a Man, but I've never shot an animal. Some 'manly' types might say you're not a 'real man' until you've killed something and provided food for your family, I don't agree. Some people say 'Man Up' to refer to 'male traits' or male gender roles that I might think are antiquated or could apply equally to any mature adult…

Some people might say 'you're not a real woman until you've had a baby' which would be pretty annoying to women who consider themselves to be real women with or without ever having borne a child..

Man, woman, boy, girl, child, adolescent, teenager, young adult, mature adult, straight, gay, lesbian, queer, bisexual, transsexual, Cis……… etc etc etc etc etc etc

They're just words that do not actually change who people are. What really matters is that we treat everyone with respect and if they genuinely want to be called something that reflects their identity, we should respect that unless they're clearly trolling us (which some people do) or they're clearly just attention seeking or putting on some kind of act or performance.

This works both ways, it means if someone is identifying as a gender or role that does not match their outward appearance, they should be ok if people accidentally misidentify them and not go seeking offense (I think it's only a tiny minority of people who actually do this)

Kingslayer

We all know at least one woman, your mam. Not all women are mothers but all mothers are women.

Jaffa3000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029586#Comment_122029586

Because they end up demanding you refer to them as a man or woman when they factually aren’t and plenty of people believe (in fact I’d say the majority) that to be nonsense.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029698#Comment_122029698

Plenty of people believe that the flat is Earth or that there's a magical invisible man in the sky that we need to worship, but of course, that's not nonsense - is it?

Again, science is founded by physics, experiments and research; not democratic majorities :)

Jaffa3000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029719#Comment_122029719

There is no science that says a man can become a woman.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029535#Comment_122029535

You sure you’re not mixing up Robert Winston with Robert Edwards?

He wasn't asked what a woman is, but when he created the world's first test tube baby, he clearly had no problem identifying the sex that carries babies to birth and the one that just provides the sperm.

Just on that…

On 10 November 1977, Lesley Brown underwent a procedure, later to become known as in vitro fertilisation(IVF), developed by Patrick Steptoe, Robert Edwards, and Jean Purdy. Purdy was the first to see her embryonic cells dividing. Edwards, as the only surviving partner, was awarded the 2010 Nobel Prize in Medicine for this work. In March 2022, a plaque was installed on Royal Oldham Hospital to record the importance of Sister Muriel Harris and Jean Purdy to the work. Although the media referred to Brown as a "test tube baby", her conception actually took place in a Petri dish.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Brown

Although Ms Purdy developed processes that are still part of IVF treatments today, her role was largely forgotten in the IVF story and the Nobel Prize committee.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2018-07-25/first-ivf-baby-louise-joy-brown-turns-40/10017032

The science of reproductive medicine has moved well beyond Winston’s understanding. Winston is no more than a decrepit old fart in terms of what modern science and medicine is discovering in the area of human fertility.

PoisonIvyBelle

God not this again.

I have my own belief on what a woman is. I believe there are women born as women, not CIS or any of that, just women, and there are trans-women also - who are trans. They are both different and that's fine. It doesn't take away from a trans-woman's right to exist. However, I say this and I get left wingers at me for being "transphobic" by simply acknowledging trans women have had a different lived experience to women born as women, and then I get right wingers at me for saying trans-women fall into the overall category of women. I have a trans person in my life and have had conversations about this quite a lot in order to understand it as much as I can.

Regardless of all of that, it's not my business what anyone chooses to think or what their opinion is and it's not anyone's business what mine is. Live and let live.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029690#Comment_122029690

Ok, but how does that affect the conversation.

If you meet someone who looks like she might be a mammy. She may even have adopted a child, she adopts the outward appearance of a woman, refers to herself as a woman, is a mother to a child, acts and behaves in a way typically associated with women in her culture, but secretly has a penis.

What actual difference does that make to anyone. Do you go around wondering about the genitals of every mother you meet on the street? If you found out that this person had a penis through some kind of 'outing' against her will, would you insist on treating her differently, as a man? Why would you do that? what benefit would it give to you or to her? or the child she is mothering?

On the other hand, if a trans person had a child as a young woman, maybe she was married young a few decades ago when it was extremely common for women to hide their sexual identity and just go along with the assigned gender roles.

Later on, that person decides that they have never been comfortable as a woman and has always wanted to be identified as a man, goes through the social transition and is now outwardly identifiable as a man. Their child accepts the transition and everyone they know refers to them as a man. If you were to find out that person had been born female and had a child several decades earlier when they had no socially acceptable way for them to live the life they really wanted. Would you insist on calling that person a woman?

Its all well and good having anonymous opinions on the internet about the philosophical basis for taxonomical categorisation of people into categories that you have always felt you understood, but these are real situations that real people find themselves in, in their real lives. And if you would be happy to go up to an actual person and deliberately offend them to their face by calling them the name or gender that they explicitly and obviously do not want to be referred by, then you need to ask what are your actual objectives here, and are you acting like the person you want to be.

Akrasia

Demanding?

Most trans people don't demand anything. They just would like it if people treated them nicely and respected their choices.

In the real world most people just want to live their lives in peace. If someone looks and acts like a woman, and wants to be referred to as a woman. Just call her a woman.

If someone is being unreasonable or has a personality that you find really grating, you're still entitled to not like them. There are loads of people I don't like, I find them annoying to deal with, but I still treat them with respect when I meet them and don't call them by some nickname that I know will annoy them because that would be a scummy thing to do as an adult dealing with other adults in the real world.

The kinds of people who spend their lives seeking offense and 'feel' that the trans community are making excessive demands of them, are just as obnoxious to me, as the small number of very outspoken 'activists' who are trying to monetise their sexual and gender identity by being as edgy and extreme as they can get away with.

In reality, you might walk past several trans people every time you go anywhere in public, and not even know that they were born a different gender to the one they are displaying in public.

Some of the people who choose to be easily recognised in public as trans, are doing so for their own reasons and if they annoy you, that's ok, but they're not representative of all trans people, just like you shouldn't see a drag queen on television and decide that's what all gay people are like.

Jaffa3000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029928#Comment_122029928

Referring to any man as a woman is not only demanding, it’s delusional. Feel like a man or a woman all you want, but unless you’re male or female, you aren’t one. If you get annoyed by that you’ve got deeply rooted issues.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029662#Comment_122029662

How do you transition scientifically? What scientific test can determine your gender? How do I find out what gender I am??

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029858#Comment_122029858

There is no science thatvsays god exists either, but plenty of people dtill believe it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030092#Comment_122030092

Didn't you ask the scientists when you told them all they were wrong and you were right?

Jaffa3000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030103#Comment_122030103

Good to know you agree with me then and have acknowledged it for what it is

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030172#Comment_122030172

That your stance is one if faith and not science, yes.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030115#Comment_122030115

You are stating something as fact, “transitioning gender is scientifically possible”. I am asking you to back that up. That’s how debates/discussions work.

If you can’t back it up, that’s fine. We can move on.

If you can back it up, I’d be very interested in reading up on it.

gym_imposter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029586#Comment_122029586

Not everyone is content to passively participate in a fraud

89897

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029698#Comment_122029698

This is fantasy land stuff. How many people have ever demanded that of you? The trans community is so small you'll likely never encounter this issue and if you did whats wrong with treating someone with respect. In fact if you ever have had dealings with a trans person you'd likely not even have known.

This is social media hysterics thats got people twisted and made alot other into full blown assholes.

89897

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030330#Comment_122030330

Have you ever been defrauded by a trans person?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030289#Comment_122030289

Back what up? Are you trying to say gender reassignment therapy doesn't actually exist?

Because that's the only claim I've made.

PoisonIvyBelle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029988#Comment_122029988

Here's the thing. If someone asks you to do this, and it helps them feel better in themselves and makes their life easier (which is often the case with gender dysphoria), then why not just be kind and do so regardless of your personal belief? You don't have to. And I don't believe in the hate speech law thing. But honestly, there is no harm to you in doing so and it can help the other person a lot.

PoisonIvyBelle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030385#Comment_122030385

I get what they're saying but it's a bit of a trap.

Yes it exists. The question is whether someone who undergoes this is the same as someone who was born that way. I believe they are different: one is trans and one is not. But a trans woman who wants me to view them as a woman is not something I have an issue with. I have lines, for example someone who hasn't fully transitioned using women's changing rooms etc., but generally I don't see the problem. It's nuanced, but that's how people end up trying to catch each other out and it's silly.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030485#Comment_122030485

Same here, but again this is not something I argued.

The initial point I made was: "Science, though, has developed procedures for transition." (Post #230 and again in post #244) - and it's this point that Tiktok is challenging.

The issues of cis men pretending to be transwomen or even transitioning for the purposes of entering women-only safe spaces - or women's sports events - are serious issues, but not issues I've commented on.

yourdeadwright

Its not possible ,

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030385#Comment_122030385

Gender reassignment does not change your gender ,It helps your pretend your another gender,

There is no therapy , surgery that can change change your full bone density & bone structure from what your born with to what your pretending you are ,Its simply impossible the bone structure is completely different from hip , to head, to fingers,to arms, to elbows ,Even your to eye sight & hearing,

For Example if a Trans women who had ever single surgery & therapy available & a real women both die tomorrow and get dug up in 800 years time, instantly it would be obvious who is the REAL women & who is the Trans-women ,

You may not like that but its factual ,

People can pretend to be whatever they like but eventually reality catches up

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030552#Comment_122030552

Again, you need to take this up with the scientists who developed the procedures and tell them they're wrong and you're right.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030611#Comment_122030611

I no i don't, The issues is you misinterpreting things .

Can you point to one single scientist clamming a person can change everything about there gender ,

Your whole argument is based on a massive misunderstanding on your part,

Iv just explained to you exactly why it can't t be done & your only response is that i need to speak to a fictional scientist you've made up in your head ,

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029586#Comment_122029586

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029662#Comment_122029662

"Scientifically" is doing a LOT of heavy lifting there.

Care to name a scientist who has demonstrated that humans "scientifically" change their gender ?