Assisted dying

Gloomtastic!

Can’t find a thread on this, please merge if there is one.

Why did TDs decide on this and not a Citizens Assembly?

Jim_Hodge

Why would a nonsense like a Citizens Assembly be employed on something like this? It's the Oireachtas' job to legislate.

jucko

glooomtastic :)

apt name :)

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058342598/assisted-dying

TDs always decide things; citizens assemblies only ever make recommendations, but it remains the responsibility of the Oireachtas to act, or not act, on those recommendations.

Furthermore, citizens' assemblies only ever make recommendations on the matters that they have been set up to consider.

So, why did a citizens' assembly not make recommendations in relation to assisted dying? Because no citizens' assembly was set up to consider that matter.

Hodors Appletart

Have to agree on the previous poster's assessment of the CA - the government outright ignored any advice that came out of the CA as regards the Care Act referendum, and forced a fudge on the vote on the Drugs thing the CA recently sat for, for months, and will probably either do nothing or do something that didn't come from the CA if they ever get around to enacting legislation on it at all.

As it stands now, the CA is nothing but a talking shop that the government ignores. Pointless.

There was/is a thread somewhere on the subject of assisted dying, but with the search function not fit for purpose difficult to find. It was quite lively when this topic was previously mooted.

I’m not quite sure how I feel about it overall. I fear it could be used in lieu of proper care afforded by state services / as a way of relatives to unload a “burdensome” family member / as option a person might take because they have a low self-worth. On the other side of the coin, it could relieve the most unbearable aspects of suffering a person finds that fate has dealt them, when pain can only be relieved by palliation to the extent that quality of life is extremely poor.

I’ve progressive MS myself and I wonder how in a few years time I might feel about all this. I love my freedom and independence, I love going out and about, I can’t see myself being content with being long-term in a care centre. I might change my mind and adapt to being cared for, I might even take kindly to it. I don’t know though. If I thought I could be “put to sleep” I might be first in the queue for it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915700#Comment_121915700

You wouldn’t qualify under any of the criteria being put forward.

StrawbsM

If I get to a stage where I’m confined to a bed or chair for the rest of my days and I need others to move me, wash me and wipe my bum then I’d like off this planet please.

I also don’t want the children that I decided to bring into this world burdened with having to give up their lives to just exist for the sole purpose of prolonging my existence. I have no faith in the state care system as it is and can only see those services being eroded further.

Trigger Happy

I would be all for assisted dying. If someone can make the decision for themselves and it saves them from a painful last few months then its absolutely the right thing to do. Put the right protections in place etc.

My uncle in Canada had an assisted death and it was such a relief for his family that he did not need to suffer. He called me on the day of his death to say goodbye and while it was a tough conversation I do cherish it. He went the way he wanted to go - at home with his family and in no pain.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915721#Comment_121915721

The committee report isn't available online yet, but per newspaper reports it will recommend that the law apply to people diagnosed with an illness or a medical condition that is “incurable, irreversible, progressive” and at an advanced stage that will cause death within six months, or within 12 months in the case of a neurodegenerative condition.

Recode wouldn't qualify now, but they're expressly looking to the future. MS is a neurodegenerative condition and in the current state of medical science it's considered incurable. It's certainly irreversible and progressive. So, yeah, it looks to me that there could come a point for any MS sufferer where they would qualify.

Simply "not being content with long-term in a care centre" wouldn't get you there, though. Your disease would have to progress to a point where doctors are telling you that you have less than 12 months to live. Many people with MS never reach that point, but some do. And no individual person with MS can know with confidence that they will, or will not.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915727#Comment_121915727

So many tales of Irish and UK people going to Dignitas and others are similar to yours - my condolences on your loss.

I saw my father go from a Victor McLaglen type of man, big and strong - to someone who needed care and forgot my mother had passed away often - had Covid not taken him he may well be suffering still. We always had conversations like that - his comment was always "pull the plug girl". He'd have been right behind this in his own country.

I would certainly take advantage of the option if certain illnesses were diagnosed and whilst I am happy to go to Zurich, I would like loved ones with me without threat of jail.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915770#Comment_121915770

MS is rarely fatal.

dulpit

Assuming any law has strong protections against family members coercing loved ones into a decision they don't want, I see assisted dying as an absolute no brainer to be introduced here. Give people the dignity of a choice. It's not going to be mandatory or anything, so if you disagree with it, then you don't have to choose it.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915800#Comment_121915800

I know. But "rarely" is not "never".

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915888#Comment_121915888

That simplistic rationale could be assigned to a plethora of medical issues, people are not going to have access to assisted dying based on “well it’s not as if no one ever dies of this condition”. If you go back and read the poster’s post, their issue was about contentment in a care centre.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915813#Comment_121915813

Assuming. Good luck with that one.

Hotblack Desiato

Previous thread

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058313439/euthanasia-your-views

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121917146#Comment_121917146

My own thread LOL!!! I had genuinely forgotten starting it!!

🤣😱 I need memory tablets!

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121916980#Comment_121916980

So your view is that the government would put together a law to help families bump off their elderly relatives?

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121917909#Comment_121917909

No, the government would see it as a mechanism to reduced the unfunded state pension liability.

A side effect is that families would have an option to promote to their elderly and vulnerable members, which would speed up intergenerational wealth transfer. Think of it as like an unintended consequence.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121918795#Comment_121918795

That is cynical beyond words - and even if you don’t agree with the idea, should not stand in the way of anyone who does.

I personally would have never had an abortion but I enthusiastically voted to repeat the Eigthth as it benefitted many women’s health.

nachouser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121918795#Comment_121918795

And the death panels, don't forget the auld death panels.

Gloomtastic!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915632#Comment_121915632

So why was it decided to dispense with the CA and go straight to TDs? That’s what has me wondering.

The topic is as divisive as other topics the CA has talked about so I would have thought it perfect for CA.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121918795#Comment_121918795

Can I interest you in some tinfoil?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121919185#Comment_121919185

That's basically what happened in Canada, they made MAiD the "cure" for just about everything. There was a story somewhere, I'll have to dig it up, about a woman with some paralysis who applied to her local authority for help retrofitting her home with disability equipment, and their response was basically: "well we don't have the money for it, but if you're really suffering, have you considered assisted suicide?"

Any moves to allow euthanasia in Ireland would need really strong safeguards to prevent that sort of insanity from taking hold here.

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121919185#Comment_121919185

I’m in favour of assisted dying, in theory. How it’s put into practice is a whole lot of other questions. We should welcome questions and sceptics, especially over a matter of life and death.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121916101#Comment_121916101

A point I made in my reply.

G_R

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915632#Comment_121915632

There is no one citizens assembly - different ones with different members are convened as and when the gov of the day decides to do so.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920223#Comment_121920223

I presume this is the story. Indeed, that's appalling.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted-death-macaulay-1.6671721

"I have a letter saying that if you're so desperate, madam, we can offer you MAID, medical assistance in dying," said Gauthier who first injured her back in a training accident in 1989.

Testifying in French, she said she has been fighting for a home wheelchair ramp for five years and expressed her concerns about the assisted dying offer in a recent letter to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

"I sent a letter to Prime Minister Trudeau and that they [Veterans Affairs] offered me MAID and would supply equipment," said Gauthier.

Happy to supply the MAID equipment... reluctant to supply the ramp though. There's something evil seeming about that.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121919185#Comment_121919185

Mmm. It's not a matter of conspiracy theories. You don't have to set out to design a policy that will produce bad outcomes in order to end up with one that produces bad outcomes. And bad outcomes are equally bad whether they are intended or unintended. And the possibility of quite seriously bad outcomes from a policy on assisted dying is obvious.

What you have to ask yourself is not only "what do we want this policy to do?" but also "what incentives does this policy create?". The post above relates a story in which a person seeking assistance and support for her condition was offered assisted dying instead. And this isn't the first such story concerning the Canadian regime; there are many similar. There are serious concerns that in the Canadian system assisted dying is offered in response to problems resulting from socio-economic factors, and this alleviates pressure to address the underlying socio-economic issues.

It's obvious that if we create a regime in which the state (or anyone else) can save money by administering assisted dying, that's a bad combination of incentives which is highly likely to have a bad outcome, involving avoidable deaths. That's not an argument for saying that you can't have an assisted dying regime at all, but it is an argument for saying that you have to think long and hard about your assisted dying regime; what it's supposed to do; what it might do; and how to make it do the one and not the other. Dismissing these concerns with references to tinfoil hats is pretty much a guarantee of producing an assisted dying regime that will produce horrible outcomes.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920223#Comment_121920223

And I'm sure you will be providing evidence, and detailing how that "offer" would have worked within the criteria of qualifying for MAID.

I'll wait

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920287#Comment_121920287

"mechanism to reduced the unfunded state pension liability." No conspiracy theory at all

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920223#Comment_121920223

Canada is a special case of lunatic government though - I’ve been a supporter of assisted dying for decades, yet I clearly think they go way too far. We would hopefully follow the Swiss model and ignore theirs.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920420#Comment_121920420

You don't have to have a terminal illness, or to be dying, or even to have a shortened life expectancy, to qualify for MAID. Indeed, you don't have to be ill at all, if you have a disability.

There are three criteria:

• a serious illness/disease/disablity
• advanced, irreversible state of decline
• unbearable physical or mental suffering from the illness/disease/disability or the state of decline that cannot be relieved under conditions that the patient considers acceptable

So, if you have a disability (first criterion) that means you are permanently wheelchair-bound (second criterion) and being in a wheelchair causes you unbearable mental suffering, you've ticked all the boxes, if your mental suffering can't be relieved.

In the case that SeanW refers to, the person concerned wasn't seeking MAID — they were objecting to it being offered to them when they hadn't sought it — so the question of whether their condition was causing them unbearable mental suffering never came up.

But imagine a hypothetical case in which somebody found the constraints of living with a disability unbearable. They ask for assistance and support in relieving those constraints — the installation of a lift, a powered wheelchair, a home help, a subsidy for wheelchair-accessible transport, whatever. This, they feel, would relieve their suffering. But this is refused because there isn't a scheme to provide it, or their isn't a budget to pay for it.

The question is: Are they excluded from MAID because their suffering could be relieved by measures like this, even though they're not available? Or do they qualify for MAID because their suffering can't be relieved, because those measures are not available?

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920448#Comment_121920448

That's some leap to take being in a wheelchair as an advanced irreversible state of decline.

You forgot to look up the process of actually receiving MAID.

Hodors Appletart

My dad has dementia, and has no sort of life. Doesn't know me, my mam or siblings, he's in a facility where the staff are absolutely amazing with him - but he doesn't know them, where he is, what he's doing - and worse, when he sees us there is something in his brain that tells him he knows us and had a relationship with us, and this makes him very, very upset and emotional and that is his suffering.

We either don't visit him, and he never suffers emotionally. Or we keep visiting and he suffers very extreme bad emotions and gets upset, crying, often can't be handled by the staff for a time afterwards.

He's barely mobile, has literally forgotten how to stand up from a seated position - he can just about feed himself, but more often than not needs to be fed mush.

It's no life, and I want to sign something now that states when/if I get that way, I want out. I do not want my wife and child, siblings and friends to go through what we are going through with my dad.

It would also free up the staff to deal with patients who they actually can help.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920459#Comment_121920459

Being permanently wheelchair-bound is, by definition, irreversible. Are you saying being wheelchair-bound is not an advanced state of decline? Would you accept paraplegia as an advanced decline? Quadriplegia? Where are you drawing the line?

I'm aware of the process. In the context of the hypothetical we are discussing, it involves (among other things) informing the patient of appropriate services to relieve their suffering, including community services, counselling services and mental health and disability support services, and it involves agreeing that the patient has seriously considered those services. But in my hypothetical the services the patient requires are not available.

Tony EH

The case in Canada is more than likely a screw up in administration than anything else. Someone in Veterans Affairs got a request in and didn't understand what was being asked for or the state of mind the person was in when asking, nor did they fully understand the ramifications of what they were subsequently offering in suggesting MAiD. The fact that it seems to be a completely isolated incident, too, means there's not much to be worried over.

In any case, if Christine Gauthier had then requested MAiD on the back of that suggestion for consideration, she probably wouldn't have qualified.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920515#Comment_121920515

My heart goes out to you - that was my dad’s experience to a t. It is soul crushing and I’ve zero intention of going through that myself.

People who are against this Bill like the very well meaning medics in the palliative care sector don’t understand.

When you have your father crying in front of you because you are keeping him his wife (who had died 25 years prior) and who doesn’t know you, his first born child, who thinks you are trying to poison him because one of his pills changed shape or who almost chokes daily as he forgets the mechanism of eating …. There’s no palliative care for that no matter how much you want there to be.

We need this bill for the sake of our humanity - my dog passed months after my lovely dad, he was old and couldn’t walk and his life was pain - he was treated with dignity and allowed to leave this world with me at his side telling him I loved him. My dad passed alone gasping for every single breath.

We treat animals better than humans at the end of their life and we need to stop.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920659#Comment_121920659

Your last line has always stuck with me, I can't remember who said it on some debate years ago. But we do the kind thing for old animals to ensure they don't suffer but if it's a person? Suffer on... Such a weird dichotomy.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920863#Comment_121920863

It was staggering it really was - my pup had such a peaceful end, being looked after and yet my dad was not. We cannot call ourselves civilised if we leave people to die without dignity.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121918795#Comment_121918795

Conspiracy theories is that way >>>>

By labeling any worries as "conspiracy Theories" is ignoring the realities

Irish people by very nature "dont want to be a burden".

In Canada it only came in 8 years ago and was for people who would be in decline, in pain and with no decent quality of life. That is fair terms. But successive governments have chiselled away at it. In the near future they hope to be able to offer it to people with mental health issues. THIS IS NOT TINFOIL HAT. If you think it is you really dont belong in an adult conversation.

We all have people in our lives who wouldnt want to be a burden. Could you imagine facing MS and complete paralyses. Would you want your family to have to wipe your arse and rely on them to feed you, bath you etc. Thats not even considering the HUGE medical costs involved. Of course you would probably choose assisted dying. You can currently get MAID in Canada in such a scenario. You may have to stop eating for a few days first but you qualify.

Lets even reverse the situation. Lets say you friend has MS and complete paralyses. But they are a little older and their kids are complete C***s. The Kids dont really want to look after them and see it as hassle. Do you not think its possible that they might just give up.

We need to look at the actual reason why Assisted Dying is attractive.

• Medical costs to the patient
• Care for the patient ("being a burden")
• Access to care
• Quality of care/life

In Ireland we are trying for some insane reason, to replicate Americas Healthcare system. Everything privatised. That needs to be reversed immediately. People should have access to full free healthcare.

Every town should have "GP Centres" (Small "quick hospitals"). This would be to treat minor injuries and illnesses. Have multiple GP's and nurses working form there.

Every City should have both "GP Centres" and large Hospitals capable of treating serious and major illnesses/injuries.

Anything that shouldnt need a doctor, should be moved to pharmacies. The "Pill", contraception, Vaccines, Boosters etc all just need a nurse. Do that in Pharmacies. Doctor signatures for certain things is ridiculous. If it is for Social Welfare stuff just have a doctor or nurse at the Social Welfare.

We need a proper healthcare system designed to help people and reduce their ailments. We do not need to just kill people to reduce the queues.

StrawbsM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920515#Comment_121920515

Sending you and yours my best thoughts x

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920863#Comment_121920863

It’s a silly analogy.

Sometimes animals are put down for convenience or economic reasons, and the animal has no choice in the matter.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921272#Comment_121921272

It’s very much not a “silly analogy” when you have gone through that.

magicbastarder

if the argument is 'we shouldn't have assisted dying because Canada', why can't we have an argument of 'we should have assisted dying because spain' or 'we should have assisted dying because new zealand'?

the case usually cited about Canada - it's rather a spoiler alert, but the lady in question is still alive. she was incorrectly offered it, which is very much not the same as forced into it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921320#Comment_121921320

It really is, a pets owner can decide to have a pet put down for a variety of reasons, including the owners own suffering, would you want that scenario for a human, where a child/parent decides it’s time for the person to go to the next world, because it upsets them or they don’t want to look after the family member anymore?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121921366#Comment_121921366

When looking at Life and Death changes we HAVE TO look at the red flags and the "what if's".

When it was sold to Canada it seemed like a great idea. Now it looks like a terrible idea. They are trying to get it passed for depression ffs.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121920935#Comment_121920935

The unfunded-pension issue is a huge problem for the government. Most certainly not a conspiracy theory.

This conversation requires tough questions and mature questions

One Question is should Assisted Dying be available to children?

If not then why not?

If A child is going through pain should they not be able to avail of the same service as a 19 year old? Or is it the fact that this service is not a good idea?

Waving away tough questions like this means it is not a well thought out idea.