Would some people "fake" a calling for the sake of a job?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908401#Comment_121908401

You're wrong. Catholic teaching states that the communion wafer is literally the flesh of JC himself.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909045#Comment_121909045

That was an interesting journey for him, and I have no reason to believe his faith is insincere.

What really pisses me off though are the many politicians who are no more religious than I am, yet are terrified of speaking out against church abuses, or calling for secular education, etc., as they are still terrified of losing their imagined idea of what the OAP vote is.

40% of OAPs voted for abortion, and that was six years ago!

They're just cowards.

Hotblack Desiato

@Peregrinus The orders/diocese might have been okay with the dropout rate, but the local "aul' wans" were not!

Late 90s I briefly dated a woman who had studied at Maynooth. According to her the seminarians were far from chaste, and not just with the ladies either!

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911131#Comment_121911131

There were plenty killed in England on account of it, but not in this or the previous century.

TBH I'd readily profess to agree with what the person threatening to kill me told me they wanted me to believe in. (a) nobody can prove that I actually believe it (b) if I have one life to live, and no second go, I'd be damn stupid to shorten it by not complying with the currently favoured woo.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909411#Comment_121909411

There has been a ton of discussion here over the years on transubstantiation, whether it is symbolic or literally true etc... Whatever the official line of the Catholic church might be, I'd tend to agree with you that the majority of Irish Catholics would consider it symbolic. I suspect they similarly treat a large amount of other stuff put forward by their church as rather dubious too, up to and including a belief in god for no small few. Just my opinion, but I think Catholicism is far more about tradition than religious belief in this country. That doesn't make it a bad thing, but it I do find it unreasonable that those who have chosen to abandon this tradition still have religion foisted on their children through the state schooling system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I7WTmgoclg

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911262#Comment_121911262

YKINMKBYKIOK 😉

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911131#Comment_121911131

Directly, likely none, but any evidence of being part of the other tradition could bring all sorts of woes to your door. Anna Burns covers this rather wonderfully in Milkman, where we see an ongoing hunt for very minor pieces of evidence of sympathy for the other side, including fabricated evidence, becoming reason for isolation and attack. The troubles in the North were a time and place where sensible folks kept these types of opinions strictly to themselves. Suggesting the body of Christ was little more than an unsalted pringle would not play well ;)

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911397#Comment_121911397

Being symbolic is obviously the sensible story to peddle. But for whatever bizarre reason, they stubborn refused to acknowledge this. And after 400 years, I can't see any sense prevailing.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911262#Comment_121911262

Vicars get fine women 😀

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911443#Comment_121911443

It wouldn't, but more because of the evident intent to offend and ridicule than because of any underlying difference of theological opinion. I thought it was only the most ignorant of ignorant Americans who ever imagined that the conflict in NI had anything at all to to with conflicting religious beliefs.

nozzferrahhtoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908401#Comment_121908401

Quite some years ago now I wrote an article on the Atheist Ireland website about doing some science experiments on said crackers. https://atheist.ie/2011/02/bringing-the-scientific-method-to-magic-crackers/

While not the height of my acheivements in life, that article did result in me meeting quite a few Catholics and talking to them on the subject. And I generally found that belief about the magic crackers fell into three camps. And while there was not an even split between numbers in each camp, it was clear to me that there was statistically significant numbers existing in each. So I would be a little cautious about declaring "no one" is being "codded".

The interesting thing to me overall though was not that these three camps existed. But how little conversation and communication was happening on the subject either from the pulpit or between the bums on seats. I met little old ladies who had gone together to mass for decades and never realised for one minute that they had massively differing opinions on what the magic cracker is or was supposed to be. For awhile I genuinely feared that I had ended a couple of life long friendships by making them discover this :/

But it struck me the reason why there was never people on the pulpit clarifying this stuff, or nice handy information pamphlets at the door making actual catholic belief on the subject clear....... was that being too specific on it risked losing bums on seats. Why come down heavily on one of the groups and risk alienating the other two groups? The Cynical part of me therefore hypothesized that rather than being interested in teaching Catholic Beliefs.... the church preferred to be as ambiguous as possible so as to maximise the number of people coming in the door.

Anyway the three camps I discovered in general were:

1) Those that believed a genuine physical change happened in the crackers. These were directly the subject of the article I wrote, given these were the only ones making a claim accessible by the scientific method.

2) Those that believed a real but entirely spliritual (and therefore convieniently entirely undetectable) change occured in the crackers.

3) Those that believed the entire ritual around the crackers was symbolic only and no change of any kind occured in the crackers themselves.

Not only did I find a significant number of group 1 existing that I got to talk to.... I also received a small but significant number of death threats and aggresive push back following the article itself. One of the contents of said messages occured a few times, which was that people likened my possessing and holding onto "consecrated" crackers to them coming to my house and abducting my daughter to kidnap and torture. A comparison that belies just how real they believed the transformation of the cracker to be. They literally saw my having it as being equivilant to me kidnapping and keeping an actual human person. And they demanded I release the prisoner(s). I did not and they still lie in a drawer here.... with absolutely no signs of decay like people claim about McDonals Fries :)

The fact it was a "bulk ordered" tasteless foodstuff appears not to have influenced their beliefs or opinions on the matter at all. Nor, it seems, did the fact that their belief amounts to ritualised cannabalism.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911317#Comment_121911317

Aul' wans are always unhappy about things. It's one of the defining characteristics of an aul' wan.

As for the lack of chastity among Maynooth seminarians in the 90s, I don't think this is news.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911474#Comment_121911474

As we see with so much strife surrounding opposing religious tradition, seemingly minor differences are used as a mechanism to polarize groups and provoke disproportionate hatred. What religious dogma adds is an additional element of strong intransigence that helps fuel this fire.

Admittedly, atheism can occasionally fall into the same trap, having a go at folks based on what they think they're supposed to believe. From a secular perspective, I have no problem with what anyone else does or does not believe, nor would I tell them what they should or shouldn't believe. I'd hope that society would accord the same courtesy to all its members but feel we still have a way to go there.

Peregrinus

Wouldn't disagree with any of that. I'd just make the point that, in the many, many ways in which intercommunal tensions in NI have been inflamed over the past century, provoking disagreements over Eucharistic theology doesn't really feature. Not only are people not in substance killed for their eucharistic theology, they don't even have the appearance of being killed for their Eucharistic theology.

witchgirl26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121876140#Comment_121876140

It's not just a little harsh - it's quite a bit wrong. My dad was a Christian Brother before leaving & having a family. They offered a route to further education that, in 1950's rural Ireland, wasn't going to be an option otherwise. Himself & his brother both signed up at 16, completed their secondary level educations & my dad got 2 degrees with his brother getting 1. My dad stayed on as a teacher & I think it was the teaching part that was his calling more than anything religious because he stayed doing that until retirement age. His brother left about a year after finishing his degree. That's what it was used for - to get an education or at least finish secondary (which was a higher achievement back then than currently as a lot left at 16). They provided lodgings & food so parents didn't have to worry.

Now I will say my dad's family was probably unusual in that his parents gave himself & his brother the choice (as opposed to others who just signed them up). But there definitely wasn't a religious calling for my dad. He believed in God but after leaving, he rarely went to mass (except for occasions). And for 20 years it provided a good education, job & life for him. Until he wanted a family & dipped! I doubt him & his brother were unique in that respect!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911397#Comment_121911397

Yeah I can’t pretend I’m over the moon about the young lads going communions and confirmations etc.

The Mrs told me when our eldest made his communion we may go to mass on Saturdays or Sunday to be “seen to attend” by the priest.

Yeah, that happened.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911443#Comment_121911443

Suggesting the body of christ is just a crisp disagrees with and is offensive to both sides. Not sure what point your are getting at tbh.

The Troubles were nothing to do with different religious beliefs. I'm not surprised when people overseas are not aware of that, but genuinely am when Irish people are not.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121912593#Comment_121912593

It’s also absolutely wrong.

It’s a wafer.

robinwing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911262#Comment_121911262

The Garden of Gethsemane springs to mind...ouch!

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911704#Comment_121911704

This post sums up the farce that is communion and confirmation in Ireland.

The family get all dressed up, boom a big day out, spend a fortune, and don't believe in any of the religious aspect of it. Loads of fake smiles for the cameras and plenty of posts about the wonderful day all over social media.

And the church haven't got the balls to demand some actual participation in the lead up to the event, as they well know that everyone would throw in the towel if they actually had to make an effort, attend a few masses, and participate in the religion that they are so happy to turn out for a couple of times in their life.

It's like a kid showing up on cup final day having not attended a training session or a match all season.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914823#Comment_121914823

You blame parents but what are they supposed to do when it becomes part of a normal school day?

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914852#Comment_121914852

Grow a pair. Tell the school your child isn't religious, neither are you, and the child won't be partaking in the festivities.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914764#Comment_121914764

Are you trying to make some pedantic point of crisp vs wafer. Seems a little irrelevant. Or did you miss the context? Poster called it a pringle, he was being factious.

There was a comment made about catholic vrs protestant differing views on the "body and blood", and how the wrong view might get you killed. With the suggestion if you were heard to refer to is as an "unsalted pringle" might see you painted as supporting the "other side". I'm pointing that that's a bit nonsensical, given that "it's a meaningless wafer" is not a held view of of either side.

And what it actually is was not up for debate. This is A&A, we likely all view it as a wafer. The point is that is symbolic vrs corporal view is a pretty details in various faiths. The fact many people don't really buy into that it just further evidence that the grasp of religion is slipping.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915454#Comment_121915454

I'm pointing that that's a bit nonsensical, given that "it's a meaningless wafer" is not a held view of of either side.

.

.

This is A&A, we likely all view it as a wafer.

So here in the A&A, we view it as a wafer but apparently not a meaningless one. Right, not so much into meaningful wafers myself. As an atheist forum, we strive to deal with other posters respectfully, as opposed to the beliefs or traditions of any given religious group which regularly come under harsh scrutiny and even ridicule. If you want a theological discussion on transubstantiation that demands respect of differing religious beliefs, I suggest you take it over to the Christianity forum.

The Catholic church often gets a rough ride on this forum because it has dealt very harshly with many atheists in this country over the course of their lives and continues to attempt to insinuate itself on new generations through foisting it's belief system on their kids in our school system. For many, it does not deserve our respect as it is not respectful of our differing beliefs.

And what it actually is was not up for debate.

What is up for debate here is whatever posters care to debate once it is within the bounds of the forum charter.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914852#Comment_121914852

That kind of sums up the problem of allowing the Catholic church run the vast majority of our schools. Many parents don't have an easy option to avoid communion and confirmation, regardless of their own preferences. Fine if you happen to want this for your kids, if not it amounts to a lot of lost time, money and and unwanted indoctrination with ceremonies appearing to get more lavish year on year.

Peregrinus

Three's a difference between having to participate in something and having to be exposed to others participating in it. It may be outrageous that the Catholic church patronises more than 90% of the national schools in Ireland but, if it is, that's not because children whose parents don't want them to make communion or conformation find themselves in a school where most children do make communion or confirmation. It's reasonable to demand that your children shouldn't have to participate; wholly unreasononable to demand that the event not take place, with the result that no child can participate. This thread is full of people criticising the parents who choose to have their childen participate, but they have as much right to make a choice in the matter as do the parents who choose not to.

If you make choices for your children which only a minority of parents make, then your children will notice that they are doing things differently fro most other children. You need to raise resilient children — perhaps you need to be come a bit more resilient yourself — to understand that living in a diverse world where you have to deal with being in a minority on certain issues, and where you have to be aware that you are doing things differently from other people, is not an asssault on your rights.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915560#Comment_121915560

Something of a 'might is right' and 'put up and shut up' argument there P. Catholicism has been in serious decline in this country for a long time and that minority who are not religious amounted to some 736 thousand people at last count. The fact that 90% of national schools present a Catholic ethos and include religious instruction as part of the core curriculum where only 69% of the population are Catholic is indeed outrageous. If you look at the age profile of those of school going age and child bearing age this gets more pronounced and is only going one way. As for actual church going Catholics who practice their religion beyond communions, confirmations, weddings and funerals, the gap narrows rather more dramatically. Just speculation, but I'd imagine that if there was no social pressure to engage with communions and confirmations, many nominal Catholics would not bother.

I do think it is unreasonable to argue that children from minority traditions, regardless of how sizable that minority might be, should have to be more resilient than their Catholic peers. I'm of the opinion that the state schooling system should treat all students and their parents on an equitable and inclusive basis. Would you be making the same arguments were Catholicism a minority in this country, as it likely will become in the not too distant future?

Peregrinus

I haven't said that children from minority traditions have to be more resilient than children from the majority tradition. We should all aim to foster resilience in our children; it's an important life skill. But children from minority traditions are going to have a particular need of it precisely because they are part of a minority and so differ from the group. (This isn't just true of children from minority religious traditions; children from ethnic or cultural minorities, children who have disabilities, children who are growing up gay or non-binary; they're all going to have to deal with being out of step with the mainstream of their peer groups, which is always a problem for kids. Hence the importance of resilience.)

The complaint repeatedly made in this thread is that the majority of parents in these schools do in fact have their children participate in these ceremonies. That's a choice they are perfectly entitled to make; they have the same right to choose as the parents who make the opposite choice. For that reason, complaining about their choice is pointless, and arguing that they shouldn't have the choice because, if they do, the secular parents are forced to make a choice which puts their kids outside the mainstream is indefensible.

Who said removing practice from schools means it has to go away?

When I was school they didn’t have a GAA club for example, but I joined one outside of school. Why can’t parents who want to participate in sacrements sort it out after school?

Thats the point I think. I’m being told to “grow a pair”, but it seems to me I’m not the problem here.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915927#Comment_121915927

Very much my thoughts on it too and, strangely enough, also echoed by the Catholic church a couple of years back. In an article from the Irish Times in 2020 Archbishop Diarmuid Martin states that sacramental preparation should be taken out of schools, return to the parish, and have much greater parental involvement. From the article

Donal Harrington, catechetics co-ordinator at the Dublin Diocese, is playing a key role in helping to shape what this new system will look like.

He says that while details are still being worked on, sacramental preparation in the parish will be on an “opt-in” basis. This, he says, will lead to a reduction in numbers.

The ceremonies are also likely to be much smaller; instead of a big school-organised Mass on a Saturday, the sacraments will be spread out over the course of a number of Sunday Masses, making it less of a “huge show”.

“The idea is that you no will longer make your First Communion just because you’re in second class. In future, people will make a request to the parish and follow a parish programme that will be put in place,” he says.

“It’s fairly automatic at the moment and many are not able to opt out. It can take a lot to opt out when so many other children are having a big day and everything.”

Not sure what actually happened here. On the basis that only 32% of Irish Catholics actually attend mass regularly, I wouldn't be surprised if it was shot down by all those parents who like the idea of a big day out for their kids but have better things to do with their time than traipse down to the local church and take an active part in preparation.