Would some people "fake" a calling for the sake of a job?

gormdubhgorm

I was going to post this in the religion area but it is probably safer here. I happened to be watching Tommy Tiernan, talking to a monk. Who seems very earnest and genuine in his convictions. He does not seem to want for much materialist things.

But surely there must be some who pretend to "believe" in order to get peace and quiet, a job, or to make money?

For example, priest or in particular those American "preachers" who can earn fortunes in congregations with Super Churches.

It seems to me as it is a question of "faith" and no concrete proof what is to stop some chancer who suddenly "believes" in the chance of a job.

Hotblack Desiato

As the saying goes, it's indoor work and no heavy lifting.

In the US, it's probably the easiest way to own a private jet if you're not a major rock star.

But seriously... losing one's faith is no joke when it can cost you your job, your home and possibly your relationship or family (I suppose RCs dodge that one)

Richard Dawkins and others set up The Clergy Project to provide support for clerics who no longer believe.

https://clergyproject.org/

In Ireland, for a long time it was an escape route for those who did not wish to marry, if you get me. A route to respectability and indeed privilege, instead of condemnation and contempt.

I do wonder about popes, cardinals, archbishops and the likes, who usually spend many years studying theology over and above what the priest in a parish gets - does it never occur to them that it's all based on nothing other than hearsay? I strongly suspect the top guys are only too aware of this, but they're far too deeply invested in the sunk cost fallacy and they get a nice living off the sweat of others' brows.

Anyone who genuinely believes that when they take communion they are eating the flesh of a man who died over 2,000 years ago is certifiably insane.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875798#Comment_121875798

Hotblack Desiato

If one person holds bizarre irrational beliefs, they're either weird or insane.

If millions of people hold bizarre irrational beliefs, it's a religion, and must be respected

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875798#Comment_121875798

Becoming a priest/brother was also seen as a handy route for poorer youngsters with aptitude to get a good education. Another reason to get a “calling”

Hotblack Desiato

That was why the RCC is against contraception. Son 1 gets the farm, son 2 might get an education, son 3 joins the clergy... and those who were too thick for that joined the "Christian" "Brothers"

There was a minor kerfuffle in my Dublin suburb in the late 70s. A son of one of the families across the road from us signed up for the priesthood, spent a few years getting a degree his family could not otherwise have afforded, then quit before becoming a made man. The tutting was audible from Earth orbit.

A few doors up, a good friend of my mother's suspected that her grandchild had not been baptised, so performed an impromptu ceremony in the kitchen sink.

They walk among us

beachhead

Cases in UK where asylum seekers faked conversion to Anglican religion to get residence

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121876025#Comment_121876025

I don't agree with the "too thick" part I would have had a relative on my (aunts side by marriage) who became a Christian Brother went off to work in India at a very young age, teaching etc. Intelligent, hard working, pious type if a little too trusting of people. Bit naive in that sense

He would not have made money of course as the Brothers give all money to the order. I sort of regret never having asked him before he dead was it a "calling".

Because it seems to me that religion is a lot like banks once people join one they stick with it.

It must be almost impossible for religious orders to vet chancers surely? I mean all the theology stuff can be learnt off by rote, get a few phrases and off you go. Plus in this day and age there is a lack of Priests, more chance of getting in?

America would be where I would want to go if I wanted to make the big money, from what I see you just have to show a certain bombastic charisma, know the lines and off you go.

Hotblack Desiato

Cases in UK where asylum seekers faked conversion to Anglican religion to get residence

Feckin' Protestants up to no good as usual.

and they get a nice living off the sweat of others' brows.

Although I posted that myself, I didn't realise that's a biblical quote - from Genesis 3:19 :

By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

There really is a bibalickle quote for every occasion 😀

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121876100#Comment_121876100

A llittle harsh perhaps, but it's well known that study for the priesthood required completion of a degree before ordination, "brothers" did not require that. I'm sure your relative was a nice person who strove to make the world a better place, let's just say that not too many idealists ended up in Dublin's poorer suburbs.

How can anyone prove belief in anything? They can't. I could rhyme off all sorts of prayers learned off by rote in my childhood, despite not believing a word.

US evangelists are just successful manipulators of people. I hate what people call "charisma" - it's just a way of causing others to override their better judgment. This applies to politics too, of course!

Hotblack Desiato

America would be where I would want to go if I wanted to make the big money,

https://youtu.be/CjWgZ5cbeAM?t=283

Peregrinus

1. You can fake a calling for the sake of a job.
2. But think twice. If the job requires a vocation that you haven't got, you're likely to hate being in the job. Is career misery a price you are willing to pay for prosperity?
3. Plus, you're fairly likely to do it badly, or at best in a mediocre fashion. So it's not likely to be a route to prosperity anyway.
4. Plus, even if you are sincere in your vocation, and good at your job, religious ministry isn't generally a route to prosperity. While there are a few fabulously wealthy televangelists in the US, for the great bulk of those working in ministry the pay is nothing to write home about. If you're going to fake it in some profession as a route to wealth, you'd be wiser to fake it in a profession that offers a better prospect of wealth. That's most professions, to be honest.
5. But if you're absolutely determined that faking it in religious ministry is the way to go, then what you should fake is being Jewish. On average rabbis are, by a considerable length, the best paid clergy of any religion or denomination.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121907878#Comment_121907878

Hmm, the cynic in me would say there are many people in many professions that are in their jobs primarily for the money and often aren't good at those jobs as a result. I'd imagine this is as true for the clergy as many other occupations. The difference in today's Ireland is young folks are no longer as pressured into joining the clergy as they once might have been and we see diminishingly few vocations as a result. Whether you still have a very few following that path as an easy option is anyone's guess, but given overall numbers, I'd doubt it. Maybe a thing in more affluent parts of the states.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121876025#Comment_121876025

There was a minor kerfuffle in my Dublin suburb in the late 70s. A son of one of the families across the road from us signed up for the priesthood, spent a few years getting a degree his family could not otherwise have afforded, then quit before becoming a made man. The tutting was audible from Earth orbit.

Sounds like typical bitterness and begrudgery. Neighbours jealous that the "thicko" up the road actually fared out better than their own darling genius children 😀

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875798#Comment_121875798

"In Ireland, for a long time it was an escape route for those who did not wish to marry, if you get me. A route to respectability and indeed privilege, instead of condemnation and contempt."

Yep, had a relative who did just that. Went on the missions and acquired house boys to help around the place. It was a valid choice in the day.

CrazyEric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908302#Comment_121908302

A lot of the "Mammys" knew what their "special" son was, they couldn't put it in words, little Johnny wasn't "gay" he just had a "calling" and was forced into the church to hide him because sexuality didn't matter to a priest.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058339860/would-some-people-fake-a-calling-for-the-sake-of-a-job

I'd join the prods for a calling/job far superior job than a Catholic priest

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875820#Comment_121875820

But that’s an ignorant view of what religious people believe. I am not one of them and i can identify the ignorance.

They do not believe they are eating the body of someone who died 2k years prior they are almost reenacting the events of the last supper.

what the priest says is what Jesus would have said according to the records available. They’re bulk ordered wafers. No ones that codded except yourself i think?

As for faking your faith that would be a rough dose surely? I couldn’t imagine myself faking believing in God or having a faith that I just don’t have.

Im sure there’s plenty who do but I couldn’t imagine it’s the majority.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908426#Comment_121908426

As @Hotblack Desiato said America is the place to go if you want the big money. The money is so big and it is really just showmanship.

https://reachrightstudios.com/church-compensation/#h-senior-pastor-nbsp

Senior Pastor 

• 1 to 150 members – $35,494 to $67,221
• 150 to 300 members – $75,624 to $83,533
• 300 to 500 members – $96,656
• 501 to 999 members – $120,485
• Over 1,000 members – $162,761

--

I believe they call the churches with 2000 members and above, "mega churches"

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/27/us/what-is-a-megachurch-explainer/index.html

The biggest ones seem to have 40,000 plus.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908401#Comment_121908401

I'd imagine you're right in terms of no-one being codded that the bulk ordered wafers are anything other than bulk ordered wafers, even when eaten as part of a religious ceremony. As an atheist, to me that begs the question what other religious claims from Christianity do most religious folks consider to be just codding / bunk? Everyone being direct descendants of Adam and Eve, every other land animal a direct descendant from a single pair from Noah's ark etc... There's quite a bit of rather far fetched stuff to choose from, should you take the bible in its entirety literally. If you don't take it literally, you end up choosing what to believe based on what you'd like to be true on the one hand and what you find credible on the other.

My guess is that there are huge numbers of people faking faith. Religion was something beaten into you for many in previous generations in this country and still is in plenty of places elsewhere. Faking belief in the context of coercion and nasty repercussions seems entirely reasonable, doing so for financial gain is similarly plausible.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058339860/would-some-people-fake-a-calling-for-the-sake-of-a-job

Probably more common than people think especially in politics. Your question immediately made me think of the former green party leader, previously a primary school teacher, school principal, local councellor and TD in north dublin from 1992 to 2011. After losing his dail seat, he went on to become a CofI priest around 2017 and is now Bunclody parish rector. If preaching through politics closes off, why not switch to the pulpit at almost sixty to share your views? Probably was a late calling though 😏😏.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908401#Comment_121908401

Dictionary

Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

transubstantiation

noun CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY

the conversion of the substance of the Eucharistic elements into the body and blood of Christ at consecration, only the appearances of bread and wine still remaining.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908980#Comment_121908980

the thing is no one’s being codded that these waters are Jesus Christ reborn they are absolutely symbolic and I don’t believe anyone is making a claim to the contrary.

I was dragged along to mass as a young wan and went through the sacraments and this is how I’ve always understood it as well as anyone I know who still practices.

The comment just comes across to me as point and laugh at the stupid people who believe the stupid stuff. Could be an unfair POV and I hope I haven’t offended anyone saying such.

But yeah there’s no smoke and mirrors at play, it’s all symbolic.

But sure that’s religion summed up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909411#Comment_121909411

Transubstantiation – the idea that during Mass, the bread and wine used for Communion become the body and blood of Jesus Christ – is central to the Catholic faith.

Transubstantiation is what differentiates catholics from protestants. You cannot say "no one is being codded". It is the absolute core of catholicism, and if it isn't believed in then the catholic church comes to an end.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909441#Comment_121909441

Ah look if you don’t agree with me that’s okay, I fully subscribe to the opinion that no one’s being “codded” and there’s not a seat occupied in any church by someone who believes without question the wafer has all of a sudden turned to Jesus.

I think you’re reading it far too literally. But look we can have a difference of opinion there’s nothing wrong with that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909451#Comment_121909451

Agree to disagree sure.

However a catholic who doesn't believe in transubstantiation is not a catholic, they are a christian or a protestant and they are in the wrong church.

I am reading it literally because it is the one key differentiator between the religions. There were many people killed up north on this one difference of belief.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909556#Comment_121909556

Name one person who was killed up north on account of differing opinions about transsubstantiation.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908136#Comment_121908136

Whether you still have a very few following that path as an easy option is anyone's guess, but given overall numbers, I'd doubt it.

I'd doubt it too, if only because, these days, it's far from an easy ride, in Ireland at any rate. It was never a lucrative profession, but it did come with a high degree of social approbation, which is definitely not the case now. Plus, you're working in a demoralised and declining institution and, given the clergy shortage, you're massively overworked compared to back in the day. You might not agree with the convictions or values of someone signing up for the gig now, but I'd be fairly confident that they are sincerely held.

I'm amused by Hotblack's story:

There was a minor kerfuffle in my Dublin suburb in the late 70s. A son of one of the families across the road from us signed up for the priesthood, spent a few years getting a degree his family could not otherwise have afforded, then quit before becoming a made man. The tutting was audible from Earth orbit.

The amusement is because this wasn't unusual or remarkable; it was absolutely standard. Back in the days when the country was full of seminaries bursting at the seams, well over 50% of those who entered did not remain to ordination. Going into a seminary absolutely was a route to education for bright boys whose families could not otherwise afford it. The religious orders were perfectly aware of this and, by and large, relaxed about it. For many of them, educating people was part of their apostolate anyway, so they didn't see it as a waste of resources or a lost opportunity.

I don't think it was a case of everybody going in either being full of pious zeal or being cynically determined on bailing at the end of the third year. Probably a lot went in the sense of trying it out, thinking that it might be for them but aware that if it turned out not to be for them they would still benefit from having been to the seminary. And probably more than a few went in full of pious zeal, but grew up a bit and changed course. And of course quite a few who decided early on not to stay the course would have stayed to complete the BA anyway.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909411#Comment_121909411

But that is incorrect, they literally claim the contrary. That's the entire teaching. If you understood differently, you misunderstood. I'm not having a pop at your knowledge, if just that it's a really defining aspect various religions.

Many people probably do assume it is symbolic, it seems an obvious idea. But that's entirely at odds with the teaching of the church. And it's not a case of they don't say its symbolic, but we all know that's what they mean. It's specifically excluded that the presence as merely symbolic or figurative sense. It's defined as independent of the feelings of participants, whether they have faith or not.

Disagreeing with that view was a one of the key point during the reformation. Protestants generally hold a looser view that it's not corporally/physically the body of Christ, but spiritually (aka symbolic). Although different branches vary.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908385#Comment_121908385

As a vicar you can still get the (heterosexual) ride 👍️ if you're into Arlene Foster types 😀

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908401#Comment_121908401

You're wrong. Catholic teaching states that the communion wafer is literally the flesh of JC himself.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909045#Comment_121909045

That was an interesting journey for him, and I have no reason to believe his faith is insincere.

What really pisses me off though are the many politicians who are no more religious than I am, yet are terrified of speaking out against church abuses, or calling for secular education, etc., as they are still terrified of losing their imagined idea of what the OAP vote is.

40% of OAPs voted for abortion, and that was six years ago!

They're just cowards.

Hotblack Desiato

@Peregrinus The orders/diocese might have been okay with the dropout rate, but the local "aul' wans" were not!

Late 90s I briefly dated a woman who had studied at Maynooth. According to her the seminarians were far from chaste, and not just with the ladies either!

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911131#Comment_121911131

There were plenty killed in England on account of it, but not in this or the previous century.

TBH I'd readily profess to agree with what the person threatening to kill me told me they wanted me to believe in. (a) nobody can prove that I actually believe it (b) if I have one life to live, and no second go, I'd be damn stupid to shorten it by not complying with the currently favoured woo.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909411#Comment_121909411

There has been a ton of discussion here over the years on transubstantiation, whether it is symbolic or literally true etc... Whatever the official line of the Catholic church might be, I'd tend to agree with you that the majority of Irish Catholics would consider it symbolic. I suspect they similarly treat a large amount of other stuff put forward by their church as rather dubious too, up to and including a belief in god for no small few. Just my opinion, but I think Catholicism is far more about tradition than religious belief in this country. That doesn't make it a bad thing, but it I do find it unreasonable that those who have chosen to abandon this tradition still have religion foisted on their children through the state schooling system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I7WTmgoclg

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911262#Comment_121911262

YKINMKBYKIOK 😉

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911131#Comment_121911131

Directly, likely none, but any evidence of being part of the other tradition could bring all sorts of woes to your door. Anna Burns covers this rather wonderfully in Milkman, where we see an ongoing hunt for very minor pieces of evidence of sympathy for the other side, including fabricated evidence, becoming reason for isolation and attack. The troubles in the North were a time and place where sensible folks kept these types of opinions strictly to themselves. Suggesting the body of Christ was little more than an unsalted pringle would not play well ;)

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911397#Comment_121911397

Being symbolic is obviously the sensible story to peddle. But for whatever bizarre reason, they stubborn refused to acknowledge this. And after 400 years, I can't see any sense prevailing.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911262#Comment_121911262

Vicars get fine women 😀

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911443#Comment_121911443

It wouldn't, but more because of the evident intent to offend and ridicule than because of any underlying difference of theological opinion. I thought it was only the most ignorant of ignorant Americans who ever imagined that the conflict in NI had anything at all to to with conflicting religious beliefs.

nozzferrahhtoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908401#Comment_121908401

Quite some years ago now I wrote an article on the Atheist Ireland website about doing some science experiments on said crackers. https://atheist.ie/2011/02/bringing-the-scientific-method-to-magic-crackers/

While not the height of my acheivements in life, that article did result in me meeting quite a few Catholics and talking to them on the subject. And I generally found that belief about the magic crackers fell into three camps. And while there was not an even split between numbers in each camp, it was clear to me that there was statistically significant numbers existing in each. So I would be a little cautious about declaring "no one" is being "codded".

The interesting thing to me overall though was not that these three camps existed. But how little conversation and communication was happening on the subject either from the pulpit or between the bums on seats. I met little old ladies who had gone together to mass for decades and never realised for one minute that they had massively differing opinions on what the magic cracker is or was supposed to be. For awhile I genuinely feared that I had ended a couple of life long friendships by making them discover this :/

But it struck me the reason why there was never people on the pulpit clarifying this stuff, or nice handy information pamphlets at the door making actual catholic belief on the subject clear....... was that being too specific on it risked losing bums on seats. Why come down heavily on one of the groups and risk alienating the other two groups? The Cynical part of me therefore hypothesized that rather than being interested in teaching Catholic Beliefs.... the church preferred to be as ambiguous as possible so as to maximise the number of people coming in the door.

Anyway the three camps I discovered in general were:

1) Those that believed a genuine physical change happened in the crackers. These were directly the subject of the article I wrote, given these were the only ones making a claim accessible by the scientific method.

2) Those that believed a real but entirely spliritual (and therefore convieniently entirely undetectable) change occured in the crackers.

3) Those that believed the entire ritual around the crackers was symbolic only and no change of any kind occured in the crackers themselves.

Not only did I find a significant number of group 1 existing that I got to talk to.... I also received a small but significant number of death threats and aggresive push back following the article itself. One of the contents of said messages occured a few times, which was that people likened my possessing and holding onto "consecrated" crackers to them coming to my house and abducting my daughter to kidnap and torture. A comparison that belies just how real they believed the transformation of the cracker to be. They literally saw my having it as being equivilant to me kidnapping and keeping an actual human person. And they demanded I release the prisoner(s). I did not and they still lie in a drawer here.... with absolutely no signs of decay like people claim about McDonals Fries :)

The fact it was a "bulk ordered" tasteless foodstuff appears not to have influenced their beliefs or opinions on the matter at all. Nor, it seems, did the fact that their belief amounts to ritualised cannabalism.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911317#Comment_121911317

Aul' wans are always unhappy about things. It's one of the defining characteristics of an aul' wan.

As for the lack of chastity among Maynooth seminarians in the 90s, I don't think this is news.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911474#Comment_121911474

As we see with so much strife surrounding opposing religious tradition, seemingly minor differences are used as a mechanism to polarize groups and provoke disproportionate hatred. What religious dogma adds is an additional element of strong intransigence that helps fuel this fire.

Admittedly, atheism can occasionally fall into the same trap, having a go at folks based on what they think they're supposed to believe. From a secular perspective, I have no problem with what anyone else does or does not believe, nor would I tell them what they should or shouldn't believe. I'd hope that society would accord the same courtesy to all its members but feel we still have a way to go there.

Peregrinus

Wouldn't disagree with any of that. I'd just make the point that, in the many, many ways in which intercommunal tensions in NI have been inflamed over the past century, provoking disagreements over Eucharistic theology doesn't really feature. Not only are people not in substance killed for their eucharistic theology, they don't even have the appearance of being killed for their Eucharistic theology.

witchgirl26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121876140#Comment_121876140

It's not just a little harsh - it's quite a bit wrong. My dad was a Christian Brother before leaving & having a family. They offered a route to further education that, in 1950's rural Ireland, wasn't going to be an option otherwise. Himself & his brother both signed up at 16, completed their secondary level educations & my dad got 2 degrees with his brother getting 1. My dad stayed on as a teacher & I think it was the teaching part that was his calling more than anything religious because he stayed doing that until retirement age. His brother left about a year after finishing his degree. That's what it was used for - to get an education or at least finish secondary (which was a higher achievement back then than currently as a lot left at 16). They provided lodgings & food so parents didn't have to worry.

Now I will say my dad's family was probably unusual in that his parents gave himself & his brother the choice (as opposed to others who just signed them up). But there definitely wasn't a religious calling for my dad. He believed in God but after leaving, he rarely went to mass (except for occasions). And for 20 years it provided a good education, job & life for him. Until he wanted a family & dipped! I doubt him & his brother were unique in that respect!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911397#Comment_121911397

Yeah I can’t pretend I’m over the moon about the young lads going communions and confirmations etc.

The Mrs told me when our eldest made his communion we may go to mass on Saturdays or Sunday to be “seen to attend” by the priest.

Yeah, that happened.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911443#Comment_121911443

Suggesting the body of christ is just a crisp disagrees with and is offensive to both sides. Not sure what point your are getting at tbh.

The Troubles were nothing to do with different religious beliefs. I'm not surprised when people overseas are not aware of that, but genuinely am when Irish people are not.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121912593#Comment_121912593

It’s also absolutely wrong.

It’s a wafer.

robinwing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911262#Comment_121911262

The Garden of Gethsemane springs to mind...ouch!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911704#Comment_121911704

This post sums up the farce that is communion and confirmation in Ireland.

The family get all dressed up, boom a big day out, spend a fortune, and don't believe in any of the religious aspect of it. Loads of fake smiles for the cameras and plenty of posts about the wonderful day all over social media.

And the church haven't got the balls to demand some actual participation in the lead up to the event, as they well know that everyone would throw in the towel if they actually had to make an effort, attend a few masses, and participate in the religion that they are so happy to turn out for a couple of times in their life.

It's like a kid showing up on cup final day having not attended a training session or a match all season.