World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Files

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884660#Comment_121884660

A lot of work yet to be done, but this is a good start.

El Gato De Negocios

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884660#Comment_121884660

A victory for common sense. When a person is legally an adult let them make whatever decisions they want.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884907#Comment_121884907

While I agree that adults can make whatever decisions they want to, doctors should stick to the principle of doing no harm. Unless there is a very clear medical or psychological reason to give someone a surgery or medication, it shouldn't be done.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884660#Comment_121884660

Before you get too excited and lose the run of yourself, that’s not what’s been announced by the NHS. Puberty blockers have not been banned in the UK for under 18s, hormone treatments will still be available, and none of these measures had anything to do with WPATH, and they’re not being halted in their tracks.

To clarify - the NHS has confirmed that puberty blockers will no longer be prescribed at gender identity clinics. They will still be available, and can be prescribed as part of clinical trials for patients under 18 who are enrolled in clinical trials. This is nothing that wasn’t known about already, months ago. Today’s announcement by the NHS is only confirming what was announced already:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-65860272.amp

That’s notwithstanding the fact that Liz Truss’ Health and Equality Acts (Amendment) Bill, which is up for it’s second reading in Parliament on Friday, includes the following provision:

(4)(b) it would have been clinically inappropriate not to prescribe, administer or supply the medicinal product to the child

Can read the rest of it here yourself:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/58-04/0035/230035.pdf

Ironically enough (considering what is under discussion), there may not be time be time to debate the bill:

Ms Truss’ Health and Equality Acts (Amendment) Bill is on the order paper for Friday but, with two other pieces of legislation listed before it, the attempt to change the law may not be debated.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/liz-truss-conservatives-rishi-sunak-labour-mps-b2510060.html

Sunak will want to avoid that debate like the plague after his joke on the subject last month didn’t quite land as he expected:

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/08/rishi-sunak-refuses-apologise-brianna-ghey-father-pmqs-trans-jibe

Shoog

It just means anyone requesting puberty blockers will be asked to join a clinical trial. Since that will be the treatment been requested there will be 100% take up - and you get the evidence to support its continued use at the end as a bonus.

Now that actually is what the Cass report proposed.

nullzero

Back in the late 20th century people looked to this point in our future and assumed we would be exploring space, living in peace and harmony. Instead we're still killing each other and can't agree on what a man or a woman is.

We really are a pathetic species.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885066#Comment_121885066

The really pathetic thing is that people cannot accept that we aren't all the same. That's where the wars come from.

Hamsterchops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884907#Comment_121884907

Agreed 👍

No more puberty blockers for kids, and no more surgical gender reassignment either ... WPATH leave them kids alone.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885097#Comment_121885097

There is no panacea in any context, which is an apt point when discussing how treatments have up to now been offered to anyone presenting with a still poorly understood issue like transgenderism without any understanding of the potential for harm it may cause.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, dispassionate doctors in this field have been calling for a measured approach for a very long time and pressure from activist groups has done a lot of harm just as they warned.

Highlighting this is not anti trans, it's a basic form of human compassion, after all any non trans person can ignore it and never have to deal with the fall out instead people are displaying genuine concern for other human beings and being castigated for their trouble.

nachouser

Always good to have a bit of context in these sort of discussions. By now, we might actually have a full Vicar Street of people who fall into the category in Ireland.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885014#Comment_121885014

Clinical research trials are a little more demanding than you seem to realise. The pre-inclusion evaluations, the testing during treatment, and the follow-up required post treatment mean it won't be just a matter of just adding someone's name to a list of participants.

As for the evidence - if it goes the way you seem to think it will, then I will be delighted. But the results so far are not as clear cut as you've been trying to paint them. For example:

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-66842352

The original study of 44 children, who all took the controversial drugs for a year or more, found no mental health impact - neither benefits nor harm.

But a re-analysis of that data now suggests 34% saw their mental health deteriorate, while 29% improved.

This is exactly why proper research studies need to be carried out: "no difference overall" is very different to "30% improved and 30% deteriorated" in terms of the effects of the patients. But without double blinds, it's almost impossible to do anything except observational studies, which are of limited value.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885174#Comment_121885174

A gender state that is as old as man is hardly poorly understood. The only thing that is behind the time is peoples bigotry.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885482#Comment_121885482

The continued discourse around it says otherwise.

The use of drugs as a treatment for it certainly isn't well understood.

Jack Daw

Tide appears to be turning somewhat.Children no longer being prescribed puberty blockers by the NHS.

I suspect in a decade we'll hear horror stories of unnecessary damage being caused to children due to unnecessary life changing procedures being performed on them.Of course all those cheerleading this for the past 5 or 6 years will pretend they were never in favour of it.

https://news.sky.com/story/children-to-no-longer-be-prescribed-puberty-blockers-nhs-england-confirms-13093251#:~:text=Puberty%20blockers%20can%20be%20used,and%20weigh%20up%20medically%20transitioning.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885354#Comment_121885354

You could’ve read further down in the article:

They found, after 12 months of puberty blocker injections - 34% of the children had reliably deteriorated, 29% had reliably improved, and 37% showed no change, according to their self-reported answers.

The findings of the re-analysis are based on the results at 12 months, whereas the findings of the original study were based on the data available from only 14 participants at 36 months. The authors of the re-analysis acknowledge this fact in their findings too:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.05.30.23290763v3.full.pdf

You also might have missed this bit:

The new study has not been in a peer-reviewed journal yet. The authors say they felt there was an urgency in getting the information into the public domain.

The original study is poor, but I’m not surprised it was peer-reviewed and published; the re-analysis isn’t any better, but I’m not surprised they didn’t submit it for peer-review before publication, because it’s atrocious. I’m also not surprised the BBC were keen to publish it:

medRxiv (pronounced "med-archive") is a free online archive and distribution server for complete but unpublished manuscripts(preprints) in the medical, clinical, and related health sciences. Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/about-medrxiv

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885656#Comment_121885656

Why are you talking about bigotry in relation to people wanting medication to be used in an ethical manner?

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885665#Comment_121885665

Thats really not what they want, they want transgenderism to simply go away and not exist.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885696#Comment_121885696

I certainly don't, and plenty of other posters here have said the same.

I think you're taking liberties with your interpretation of other peoples opinions.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885503#Comment_121885503

You don't need to wait a decade. Today is detrans awareness day, but you can find endless horrific stories from detransitioned and desisted people on any day of the year.

You do have to look for them, though. There's a certain dearth of coverage on the issue in mainstream media.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885729#Comment_121885729

I think you're taking liberties with your interpretation of other peoples opinions.

And you’re not? You said this earlier:

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, dispassionate doctors in this field have been calling for a measured approach for a very long time and pressure from activist groups has done a lot of harm just as they warned. 

Highlighting this is not anti trans, it's a basic form of human compassion, after all any non trans person can ignore it and never have to deal with the fall out instead people are displaying genuine concern for other human beings and being castigated for their trouble.

And I was going to ask you what percentage, roughly, no need to be specific, of the parents of the 7,000 children on the waiting list for GIDS, do you reckon are transgender?

Or what pressure from activist groups has done anything in the last 30 years since the establishment of GIDS in the UK, one clinic to serve a population of over 60 million people, in terms of harm, vs the harm that has been caused by underfunding the only clinic providing the service for the NHS?

Your argument that you’re being castigated is surely no different than your attempt to portray anyone with genuine concerns as your own, as being part of some activist group putting pressure on the dispassionate doctors who have been calling for a measured approach, much the same as your basic form of human compassion.

Any more measured, and it could only be measured in negative terms.

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885176#Comment_121885176

and they deserve the same standard of healthcare as every one else.

Birneybau

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885696#Comment_121885696

This old chestnut again essentially equates to the 'no debate' defense and is utterly disengenuous

CatFromHue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884618#Comment_121884618

This is my issue here in that no one knows who the dysphoria will persist in but it's in the DSM, and I've raised it here many time, that for the majority it won't. That's before the big change in the cohort presenting to clinics happened. Your statement is very definitive when the evidence base for blockers isn't.

I suppose it doesn't matter now as what's happening in the UK at the moment and that the HSE has said the new transgender health plan won't have to follow the WPATH but there is a contradiction in what you and the authors of that study are saying. If the patient experience on the treatment was positive you would expect that to be reflected in the psychological functioning. So the statement from the authors is very definitive but the evidence base, i.e. psychological functioning, isn't. That's what the study was set up to measure and when the clinicians in GIDS found out about these results it was a key factor in the start of the fall of the service. There are many clinicians who worked there who think they harmed their patients.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886417#Comment_121886417

Nah man, what’s disingenuous is people who are opposed to recognition of people who are transgender being entitled to equal rights and protections from discrimination as they are, claiming that they now want medication to be used in an ethical manner, meaning that children who are transgender should be deprived of puberty blockers. In doing so they know that it means that when those children become adults, the same people can also claim that having gone through puberty, those people should now be discriminated against in all sorts of new ways that apply to them specifically, and that objecting to that sort of treatment means they don’t want to have a debate.

Would you want to have a debate with someone who was telling you where you could or couldn’t do something as basic as going for a piss? Would you want to have a debate with someone who was attempting to deprive your child of basic human rights such as the right to education, the right to healthcare, the right to their own identity?

That exactly what Liz Truss’ bill is intended to do:

Debate it? No, it’s just too stupid, it’s not even worth entertaining.

Shoog

There will be a small subset of anti-transgender activist who are genuinely concerned about the treatments been offered to minors, but the majority will be using this to mask their deep seated antipathy for the reality of transgenderism.

I think the likes of J K Rowling (who is actively transphobic) and frequently gets admiration on these forum for her stance, is far more representive of the bulk of anti-trans activist than those who have genuine honest concerns.

The whole anti-trans movement is riddled with disingenuous stances and arguments and is very well funded by extreme right wing groups. It's a culture war issue been used to solidify a political base and it largely plays on people ignorance of the reality.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885176#Comment_121885176

The numbers are absolutely miniscule.

The question remains, why are certain people completely obsessed with Trans?

It is beyond bizarre.

chopperbyrne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121886783#Comment_121886783

You're paranoid.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121887037#Comment_121887037

Analytical would be a better description.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121887067#Comment_121887067

Tbf you're projecting notional hatred onto anyone questioning the wisdom of certain treatments offered to minors, treatments that according to actual doctors and scientists are proving to not be as safe as stated by trans activists.

That is not analytical, that is just an exercise in airing your own grievances on this topic and ignoring facts you don't like.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121888024#Comment_121888024

It's not the profile of the people I encounter discussing the issues, and there is always a veil of respectability hiding a real motivated hatred.

There's definitely an element of reverse virtue signally going on here since most people expressing reservations about transgenderism will never encounter a transgender person up close and personal so there is no personal consequences to expressing their hatred. It's a convenient way of signalling that they are conservative and anti-woke. A very useful device.