What would Irish infrastructure look like now if Germany won the war and wanted Ireland to prosper

Ger Roe

It was German engineering and management expertise that dragged Ireland into the electrified 20th century, when Siemens project managed and built the Ardnacrusha Hydroelectric plant on the Shannon, from 1925 - 1929. 4,000 Irish workers and 1,000 germans worked to complete the project. Even today, I doubt we could handle such a monumental project by ourselves (ref: children's hospital fiasco, consistent hesitation on Metro/Dart extension plans etc..)

At a tour of Ardnacrusha recently (very highly recommended), the guide spoke of how the British were not impressed with our dealings with Germany, so shortly after WW1 and just after Britain had graciously granted us independence. It was seen as a slap in the face that we aligned ourselves with their enemy.

So in a way.... even without winning the war (WW1) Germany helped Ireland to prosper in probably the most effective way possible, at the time.

https://www.goethe.de/ins/ie/en/kul/sup/dsi/20734449.html

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121869710#Comment_121869710

They did not do it for free though: that one project cost 20% of the Government’s revenue budget for the whole country. Good job the Germans had not to build railways, lighthouses, harbours, do mapping, set up legal systems, build roads, build canals etc. Could not see them doing that in Ireland if they had not already existed and if they won the war.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121869252#Comment_121869252

the south african government had little to no choice in the matter, being a colony of the british for a time.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121869909#Comment_121869909

none of that changes the fact that it was the germans who helped to build one of the most important projects ever built in the state, if not the most important.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121870848#Comment_121870848

You forget there was no objections from the government of South Africa, they were very happy to join the British. If you look it up, you will see between 1914 and 1918, over 250,000 South Africans of all races, from a population of 6 million, volunteered to serve the Allied cause. Thousands more enlisted in the British Army directly, with over 3,000 joining the British Royal Flying Corps. And you think that number would have volunteered if the mortality rate in the camps 12 years earlier was much higher than that outside the camps?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121870868#Comment_121870868

The power station was a major project, no doubt about it. It was not a first though, there were other power stations elsewhere in the world by the 1930's. The earliest dedicated commuter railway in the world was between Dun Laoghaire (then called Kingstown ) and Dublin in the 1830's. There were other amazing engineering feats which were amazing engineering, for example the Fastnet lighthouse in the 1950s. A 28m tower on the rock than has withstood waves as high and winds of up to 191 km/h, I would say given the equipment and technology at the time that was more amazing engineering than Ardnacrusha.

You are right though, we have not built any amazing engineering projects on our own in the past 100 years. The national Childrens hospital cost over-runs shows we are not very good at that. Maybe metro north will be an opportunity - we must have the only capital city airport in Europe without rail connection.

forrestgeorge

I believe Hitlers brother married a Irish girl and had a son, they lived in Liverpool, so Uncle Adolf might have had a soft spot for his Irish nephew and the rest of us paddy's, we will never know.

purplepanda

Hitlers Irish nephew fought in the US Navy during WW2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Stuart-Houston

Peregrinus

You forget there was no objections from the government of South Africa, they were very happy to join the British. If you look it up, you will see between 1914 and 1918, over 250,000 South Africans of all races, from a population of 6 million, volunteered to serve the Allied cause. Thousands more enlisted in the British Army directly, with over 3,000 joining the British Royal Flying Corps. And you think that number would have volunteered if the mortality rate in the camps 12 years earlier was much higher than that outside the camps?

Well, hold on. Of that 250,000 some 84,000 were Black. We can agree, I think, that at the time (and for long afterwards) Black people in South Africa were extremely badly treated. Clearly this didn't stop them volunteering, but I think it would be a mistake to see that as some kind of endorsement of British colonial rule in South Africa. Other explanations are possible and obvious — e.g. perhaps Black people hoped that loyalty to the Crown would be rewarded with political or economic betterment after the war. (If they did hope that they were disappointed, obviously.) Or, perhaps they were desparate, and just needed the money.

So, if we can accept that Black people might have volunteered for reasons other than a warm, frank love for the crown, obviously that might also be true of White people.

Plus, per Wikipedia, about 146,000 of the volunteers were White, but I haven't seen any breakdown as between Anglo and Boer. Given that the concentration camps were perpetrated by Anglos against Boers, we can't point to enlistment in the forces as telling anything at all about how well the Boer community was reconciled to, or how supportive they were of, British rule unless we know, at a minimum, how many Boers volunteered. And we don't.

randd1

Has the OP started watching The Man In The High Castle by any chance?

Although "what ifs" can be fun.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856566#Comment_121856566

https://www.irishtimes.com/motors/2023/03/15/meet-the-ballsbridge-built-beetle-that-made-history-for-volkswagen/

They outsourced after the war :)

badabing106

Interesting answer when I asked co pilot Microsoft AI the exact same question

It's nothing like the doom predictions by the majority of opinion on this thread

If Germany had emerged victorious in the war and sought to elevate Ireland’s infrastructure, we can imagine a fascinating alternate reality. Let’s explore this intriguing scenario:

• Transportation Network:High-Speed Rail: Germany’s renowned engineering prowess would likely lead to an extensive high-speed rail network connecting major Irish cities. Imagine swift trains whisking passengers from Dublin to Cork or Galway in mere hours.
• Modern Roads and Bridges: Ireland’s highways and bridges would be meticulously designed, incorporating German efficiency and safety standards.
• Ports and Airports: State-of-the-art ports and airports would facilitate seamless international trade and travel.
• Energy and Utilities:Renewable Energy: Germany’s commitment to renewable energy would inspire Ireland to invest heavily in wind, solar, and hydroelectric power. The Ardnacrusha Hydroelectric Plant, built by Siemens in the 1920s, would be just the beginning.
• Smart Grids: Ireland’s power distribution would be smart and efficient, minimizing energy wastage.
• Water Infrastructure: Clean water supply and efficient sewage systems would be top priorities.
• Digital Infrastructure:Fiber Optic Networks: Ireland would boast lightning-fast internet connectivity, enabling seamless communication and digital innovation.
• Data Centers: German expertise would lead to cutting-edge data centers, attracting tech giants and boosting Ireland’s digital economy.
• Education and Research:World-Class Universities: German-style universities would emphasize research, innovation, and collaboration.
• Investment in STEM: Ireland would prioritize science, technology, engineering, and mathematics education.
• Healthcare:Advanced Hospitals: German precision would elevate Ireland’s healthcare infrastructure, ensuring quality medical services for all.
• Research Institutes: Ireland would be a hub for medical research and innovation.
• Urban Planning and Architecture:Green Cities: German urban planning principles would create green spaces, efficient public transportation, and pedestrian-friendly streets.
• Architectural Marvels: Imagine Dublin’s skyline adorned with sleek, sustainable skyscrapers designed by German architects.
• Environmental Stewardship:Efficient Waste Management: Ireland would adopt Germany’s waste separation and recycling practices.
• Green Initiatives: Parks, green roofs, and eco-friendly policies would be integral to Irish cities.
• Cultural and Social Infrastructure:The Arts: Ireland’s cultural scene would thrive, with German-inspired theaters, museums, and galleries.
• Social Services: Comprehensive social safety nets would prioritize citizens’ well-being.

Peregrinus

Well, if you explicitly tell the AI to assume that Nazi Germany would "seek to elevate Ireland's infrastructure", you are telling it not to make the point that everyone in this thread has made. So, we now know that an AI will accept your instructions. What exactly do you think that proves about what Nazi Germany would actually have done?

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121899535#Comment_121899535

AI is nearly completely rubbish isn't it ? It answered as if modern Germany had won a war and then ignored the whole EU project as being a way of having more benefits than waging a war. If only there was a way to see what effect that might have ?

Brexit is costing the UK more than NI does. And that's with a trade deal with the EU. Per capita GDP here is way higher than in NI. Without the 25% of NI GDP that comes from Westminster NI would be a basket case. ( In a united Ireland people up North would have actual constitutional rights and probably decide which government gets in for the foreseeable future. )

Infrastructure up North west of the Bann is exactly what would happen down here. No motorways or trains to catholic/nationalist/republican areas only ones going through them.

AI is nearly completely rubbish isn't it ? Most of that stuff is post WWII technology. During the war Germany had electro-mechanical computers and magnetic amplifiers, medically they didn't have penicillin or heart surgery and don't ask about the experiments. They did have TV though.

Hydro is pretty much maxed out here. In the days before electric cars and heat pumps and data centres our demand was increasing annually by the amount of power we get from the biggest river in the country.

Open ended AI is utter crap. Grand for imaging matching if, and only if, you have a very good data set of good and bad images.

Bob Marley Park

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121891745#Comment_121891745

That showed great promise, but ended poorly.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121899535#Comment_121899535

You'll get a far less cheery image if you query how Ireland would change if the Nazis invaded. But let's be honest, it's an AI mining data at best and following a suggestion. Can you clarify if you admire the Nazis?

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121899487#Comment_121899487

Not quite the Ruhr valley in Dublin, but I never knew that auto companies had assembly plants in Ireland. I wonder why it was done and wasn't just cheaper to ship the cars over.

I had assumed, incorrectly, that the only car company in Ireland was DeLorean (Yes, I know that it was in the north but I still thought it was the only one).

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911486#Comment_121911486

There were a number of car assembly operations in Ireland - some established and owned by the manufacturers (like Ford, which had a big operation in Cork) and some locally-owned, but licensed by the manufacturers (like Brittains, who had a licence from Morris).

This was done in large part because there was a tariff on imported vehicles which could be avoided if the parts were imported and the vehicles were assembled locally. The tariffs were set up that way to promote local employment. The incentive to establish local assembly operations was greatly diminished by the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement of 1965, and further diminished when we joined the EEC (as it was then) in 1973, since tariffs on cars imported from the UK and then from the EEC were phased out, but some of the already-established assembly operations continued until the mid-1980s.

Jack Daw

I've often wondered why the Germans never invaded Ireland and used it as a launching post against Britain and they have been able to attack britain from both sides considering they had control of France and belgium as well.

Aurelian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121933225#Comment_121933225

Ireland is out in the Atlantic and much harder to get to than say crossing the Channel. Extremely difficult invasion logistics.

Also the Geman navy was bottled up everywhere and wouldn't have had the capacity. They would've had to risk everything they had plus a lot of men and material even getting to Ireland. I'm sure the Royal Navy would have sunk most of it enroute.

Then if they'd conquered Ireland, every piece of equipment they'd need would have to run the gauntlet of the Royal Navy again.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121933225#Comment_121933225

They lacked the resources to get an invasion force across the English channel; they certainly couldn't have brought evan a small force by sea around Britain to land in Ireland.

They could perhaps have tried to mount an airborne invasion, as they did in Crete, but without control of the skies over Britain, which they never had, it would have been extremely difficult. Even if they had managed to seize control in Ireland through a suprise attack, maintaining and supplying an occupying force in Ireland would have been impossible.

(The UK did invade and occupy (neutral) Iceland in 1940, officially because they were concerned that the Germans would invade (from Norway/Denmark) and a German base of operations in Iceland would pose a threat to Atlantic shipping. In fact the Germans had no plans to invade Iceland; they had already considered and dismissed the possiblity because, even if they succeeded in taking Iceland, they could not defend and resupply it. The true British motivation was more likeley the desire to establish Icelandic bases themselves, to strengthen their own Atlantic patrols.)

lumphammer2

We will never know for sure .... I do not think though the Nazis would have been capable of doing anything positive and maintaining it .... their world domination and warmongering streak would come out ...

Early on perhaps very good infrastructure would be delivered .... but Ireland would be ruled by a puppet most likely from some group like this (Ailtirí na hAiséirghe - Wikipedia) and while not necessarily an 'IRA' regime the IRA and their anti-Britishness would be used ...

The Irish regime could be used as occupier of the UK ... the regime though could be the first point of a war with the US ... the assumption is the US was not in WW2 because that is the only realistic way Germany would have won ... the Nazis and the US would eventually clash and Ireland would be in the thick of it ...

Thankfully this did not happen !! ...

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121935792#Comment_121935792

I was thinking they could have bought a force from Norway after it had been conquered come round and take Ireland from the west.But as has been said it would have stretched them too thinly and they would have had to deal with the Royal Navy in the north Atlantic.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121933225#Comment_121933225

A German invasion of Ireland would happen outside of any Luftwaffe air cover. And would be contested by the Royal Navy who had recently been crazy enough to send a battleship into the confined waters of a Norwegian fjord to help take out some German destroyers there.

https://web.archive.org/web/20221204105122/https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/operation-sea-lion-hitlers-cancelled-invasion-of-britain/

The Kriegsmarine was poorly equipped for such an undertaking. It had no landing craft purposely built for such an operation. The Kriegsmarine had suffered heavily in the Norway Campaign. All it had available was one heavy cruiser, the Hipper, three light cruisers, and nine destroyers. All other major warships had been damaged or were not yet commissioned.

They also had 19 torpedo boats which were very light destroyers / destroyer escorts.

But they would have been up against this lot - https://naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4006-15RNHome1.htm , not counting the ones in the Med

hoodie6029

How is this even a discussion? We’ve no natural resources worth mentioning.

We’d have been the same as we were for centuries under colonial rule, used as a farm, naval bases and the supply of cheap labour to other economies.

Any industry would have been tied to our agricultural output - dairies, biscuit factories etc.

There’d be a ruling class loyal to the regime and a network of informers go to keep tabs on any disquiet.

dxhound2005

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlHI5KpJAs4