Wiring & Switch for an attic space light

Asdfgh2020

Looking for some advice re above. Currently have an attic with no lighting I would like to add a simple light like you would have in any room…..I recently got a ‘stáire’ type access stairs installed which is right above a switch that controls the upstairs bathroom light - refer to picture

Would it be possible/practical to replace the above single gang ( I think this is correct term) with a 2 gang switch like one pictured below…..

the second switch would be for the attic light…?

What’s a bit confusing (to me only of course probably makes perfect sense to any electrician ) is that in the current switch as shown above there isn’t any blue/neutral or green and yellow /earth wires present only browns, two wired into the common and one into the L1. If I were to install a 2 gang switch at this location is it possible/practical to use it to switch on/off the attic light …?

witnessmenow

First thing to address is the practical usage side of things: you in theory could run an extra wire to the switch but You'd typically not put the attic light switch downstairs , it would be very easy for someone to accidentally turn it on and since you can't see the light, leave it on for possibly months at a time.

From a wiring point of view, you'll need to connect it to an existing light as your switch doesn't have neutral and earth, which is pretty typical at least of the time (I think it's more common to have neutral in switches these days)

In the simplest light/switch wiring would be twin and earth (brown, blue and yellow/green) ran to the light, and then two browns (and earth) are run from the light to the switch. Then instead of connecting the source live (the original twin and earth one) to the light, it gets connected to one of the two switch browns, and the second brown gets connected to the light. When the switch is turned on it completes the circuit. In a regular pendant style light there will be L, N and Common terminals, common is usually used to connect the source live to switch wire.

How the attic light is wired in my house is from the switched side of the hotpress light, meaning my source of live comes after the hotpress light switch. So In order for me to turn on the attic light, I need to turn on the hotpress light, and then turn on the light switch that's just inside the attic door.

I think the idea behind this it can be turned off from not in the attic, or at least if you forget the turn off the attic light, the light will at least only be on while the hotpress light is on.

Maybe also consider a pull cord switch for the attic, it might make the job simpler and I also think it's pretty practical place to put a light switch for an attic.

If you have easy enough access to a light (which I assume you probably do in the attic) then it's not too difficult of a diy job. But if you don't feel confident with wiring, it shouldn't be too expensive to get someone in to do it (it will be a quick job for them, but take into consideration they probably have a minimum call out fee)

It's important to say if you don't understand the basics of why there are only live (brown) wires in the switch - are you the right person to be doing this safely.

Asdfgh2020

I've decent DIY skills and have done plenty of minor electrical works in the past successfully but lighting circuits are never straight forward plus trying to get an electrician to even call and look at 'small job' is getting near to impossible.........my plan with this would be to get the wiring routed correctly i.e. the donkey work and get the 'sparky' to do a check and the final connection at the switch itself....

You should be able to spur off the nearest ceiling rose in the loft. Put your switch on the nearest truss upright next to the hatch at low level. Use conduit for all wiring runs.

If space is tight in the rose transfer to a junction box with a fixed terminal strip and four or five blocks (the fifth for earth or use a floating electric strip for this). Run to the sacrificial ceiling rose in three core spur and take your new spur off the junction block.

Very simple if your careful.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121847301#Comment_121847301

"I think it's more common to have neutral in switches these days)"

The cowboy way of doing things and the lazy way. Nothing more horrible than neutrals and earth at switchs when there is no need for them to be there. Just making work then.

Much better with them at the lights and only the live and switch wires at the switch far neater especially if it's a switch with 3 or more switches.

"How the attic light is wired in my house is from the switched side of the hotpress light, meaning my source of live comes after the hotpress light switch. So In order for me to turn on the attic light, I need to turn on the hotpress light, and then turn on the light switch that's just inside the attic door.I think the idea behind this it can be turned off from not in the attic, or at least if you forget the turn off the attic light, the light will at least only be on while the hotpress light is on."

I think the idea behind that is that someone wired it wrong. Sure if your happy with it OK but very easy to fix. Just take the wire going to the attic light out from the switched side of your hotpress switch and put it with the live side problem solved unless you have a big Hotpress that is always dark even in Sumner and you need that light on to get up to the attic. Otherwise it just makes no sense.

@OP very easy to just wire an attic light with 1.5 twin with earth from a ceiling pendant. Or if you want you could do it from the switch in the hall for your switch wire and get your neutral and earth from a ceiling rose.

The best way to do this to use the switch wire at the switch as a pull wire. You will need to be able to pull this switch wire back down to the switch again so will need to half at least a half roll of 1 5 single brown. Before cutting the wire you just pulled up you with the switch wire that was there you do it the opposite way so you will need lots of extra on your new switch wire so when you table on the old one and pull it back down you still have the new one in the attic. Its a bit of work but if that's what you want it's worth it. Best to have two people when doing this and then get your neutral and earth from a ceiling rose.

Top tips1: Go for the ceiling pendant with the least amount if wires.

Top Tipp 2: you can do this be onscreen the flat part of the ceiling pendant in each room untill you find one with only two brown wires in the middle connectors.

Also no need for conduit in the attic. It's your house. The only place conduit is needed is in walls and if there is a likely hood of the cable getting hit like on a farm or in a factory not in an attic lol not in a house already wired anyway. Fu-ck that.

Asdfgh2020

Thank you both for the practical free advice........I was looking at the video below which I can understand but as you point out you end up with a massive amount of blues/neutrals and earths back at the switch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfsP-C7DjSo

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121847904#Comment_121847904

A horrible way of doing it.

However that is the simplist way to wire your attic light and the quickest as well as less work.

Do you want to be able to switch it from the switch upstairs bathroom. Light or are you OK with the switch being in the attic?

witnessmenow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121847839#Comment_121847839

Smart switches benefit from neutral at the switch. Not sure how it would be a cowboy/lazy way of doing it when it would be more work? I'm not a sparks and don't have an insight to why it would be done that way now, I've just heard that it was a thing that was more common now.

Maybe it was a mistake to wire it like they did (I doubt it, as the previous owner was apparently an electrician), it was like that when we bought the house a few years ago and while its not something I would have done, I don't think its worth changing as I don't see any harm in it.

My understanding is that live neutral and earth at the switch is the more modern approach to wiring a light.

its just about essential to have a neutral at the switch if you want to do anything automated which is probably why it has become the new standard approach.

i wish i had neutrals at my switches as it would allow me to have smart switches to my smart lights without undertaking a major rewire.

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121847926#Comment_121847926

I’d prefer to have the switch for the attic light ‘switch-on-able’ in the landing hence my suggestion bringing it back down to a 2 gang switch one for the upstairs bathroom and the other switch being for the attic light……the access hatch is right beside the bathroom so it’s a convenient location to have the switch…..I’ll try sketch out a diagram later to explain it further.

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121847839#Comment_121847839

That's not correct on neutrals at switches

Neutrals at domestic light switches came in originally as it was an improved wiring method. It mostly simplified the wiring of light fittings.

It later became advantageous to have neutrals for smart control.

It would also be advantageous now for troubleshooting fittings or a number of fittings on rcbo controlled circuits

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058338863/wiring-switch-for-an-attic-space-light

Old school wiring for switches was just live in, switched live out. 2 wires all you need, the rest is handled at the light fitting itself. The 3rd wire you have there is a loop at the switch.

The 2 wires in at common there is 1 live in and 1 loop out from this switch to the next, to save length on cable runs.

As said above, borrow neutral and earth from a light fitting in ceiling, bring up to your new attic light. Then run your switched live from your 2gang up to attic.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121848148#Comment_121848148

"Neutrals at domestic light switches came in originally as it was an improved wiring method. It mostly simplified the wiring of light fittings."

I disagree with it being an improved wiring method. It's messier and less tidy. Maybe it does simplify things for some but if you have a light switch with not much room behind it then it's not fun putting neutrals and earths in connectors or tge case of earths in the Earth lug and connectors when there is too many to go in the earth lug in the switch box when they could have been up at the light.

I much prefer the neutrals and earths at the lights.

"It later became advantageous to have neutrals for smart control.

It would also be advantageous now for troubleshooting fittings or a number of fittings on rcbo controlled circuits"

Smart control lol. What's wrong with simply pressing a button. Are people too lazy to do that now?

Probably are.

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121848373#Comment_121848373

You're wrong but go ahead . I worked domestic at the time and it was an improved method

Neutrals now in a wago isn't untidy

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121848373#Comment_121848373

I agree on smart control

I have no interest in it myself and believe it contributes little to useful to control of lighting

It's still advantageous for the implementation of smart control for those who want it

Asdfgh2020

Some really good advice and tips here. Many thanks to all….fairly clear now on how to progress…..didn’t expect such quick or detailed responses.

one further query……what exactly does a smart switch do…? Is it for those too lazy to get off their butts to turn off a light switch ….?

monseiur

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058338863/wiring-switch-for-an-attic-space-light

If light is for occasional use only the simplest way is to splice into one of the light cables in attic - say just above consumer unit if you have easy access. Fit a standard light with switch and a motion sensor - with the sensor the light will come on automatically when you enter the attic and switch off automatically. This will eliminate the risk of leaving the light on possibly for days or weeks. A good quality motion sensor costs €15.00 to €20.00 and will last years - I have this set up in my attic for over 20 years and no issues so far.

Another option is to fit a spring switch operated by the loft ladder hatch door - it works on the same principle as a car door. When you open the hatch the light will switch on and off when you close.

AmpMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121847926#Comment_121847926

If you showed up to a job and and started wiring 3 plate ceiling rose method you'd be laughed off site 😂.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121851622#Comment_121851622

Lol. So what is there someone watching others wire on sites now lol?

Must be a great job that. How do you get to be a wire watcher lol?

AmpMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121852120#Comment_121852120

I'd say its been a fair few years since you wired anything bar a plugtop the way your going on 😂.

Asdfgh2020

Follow up question, refer to the picture below.

Based on the first picture in the original post, if I transfer the brown wires to the terminals in the two gang switch below, I am assuming it will work/power the existing light in the bathroom i.e. two brown wires to the 'common' terminal and the other brown wire into the 1 way terminal ?

So next question is, if I install the new light in the attic using 1.5 sq twin and earth and connect the neutral and earth into an existing light in the attic and then route the live wire down to the second gang of the switch below i.e. the red wire below (it will actually be brown in colour but showing it red for clarity) and then connect/provide a 'live feed' from gang 1 to gang 2 i.e. green wire below (again this will be a short piece of brown wire in reality) is this a feasible way to wire it up?

The alternative is that I route a second 'live' brown wire from the attic down to the switch getting its live feed from the existing light in the attic?

Am I way off the mark / doing something non-standard / unsafe?

AMKC

You are right. You are just looping the live/feed wire into the switch. You can make it neater and easier by just having two loops in each Com terminal. In other words your first live in the Com terminal on the left then your loop from there to the other one on the right and then the other live wire out from that Com. It will still work the exact same and is neater than having three cables in one terminal.

No need to re route a second live wire to that switch. You have everything you need there except the switch wire to your upstairs light.

Your not of the mark at all.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121852443#Comment_121852443

Ha. Your way off. I just never liked that way of wiring just like you can not like every single person on this World. I would not wire lights like that in my house but if someone wants it in there's then fine.

I really wouldn't be sourcing anything from the switch, it's just wrong and you will confuse the poor sod who comes after you.

Take it from the nearest rose and leave the switch well alone. There are right and a wrong way to do these things, do it the right way.

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872723#Comment_121872723

Are you referring to my sketch/drawing above or a post by Ampman above…?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872824#Comment_121872824

I would implement a new twin and earth spur from an existing rose to a new rose and then take your conventional switched live from that. It's slightly more wire but it's entirely logical and easy to follow.

Electricians do all sorts of weird things with borrowed neutrals and lives but you have to ask yourself - how do you work it out if you open that switch and try to make sense of it.

Always think of the next man.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872723#Comment_121872723

There is nothing wrong with him switching his attic light from that switch as long as they remember to turn it off when not using it.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872861#Comment_121872861

Looping at the switch is very easy to tell from opening a switch. It's a fairly common way to wire, if you don't understand it then you shouldn't be wiring. Every electrician understands a loop at switch, even if they wouldn't all opt for it themselves. Its very basic stuff

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873562#Comment_121873562

Before you posted this response I was thinking along the same lines. A diy’er like myself might be a bit confused with the arrangement but would probably work it out based on online / you tube vids…..a bit like I’ve done.

in any case is proceeding like I’m suggesting despite being non-standard anyway risky/ dangerous..?

windowcills

Gonna throw you a curve ball here

Return the staire for a refund

Buy a battery powered headlight

Buy more insulation

Unroll the insulation in the attic

Get a sheet or 2 of kingspan

Glue, and screw the kingspan on to the old attic hatch

Put the old hatch back in place

Now just stay away from your attic, but if you need to enter to add more insulation or do something at the tanks then just wear the headlight

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873594#Comment_121873594

won’t be happening…..too many reasons to be up and down into attic/artic ( as it’s so old up there)……have a fairly large one so it’s just so convenient for lobbing stuff up into😀

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873566#Comment_121873566

No it's fine.

Most confusing part is sharing a live between switches, and that part will be there in your new arrangement regardless, unless you decide to rewire all your lights and switches.

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873678#Comment_121873678

One last comment about electrical works in domestic houses and in particular the ‘routing’ of cables……it’s like they (electricians) just pick the shortest route and throw cable over/ around joists and rafters and trusses with no thought that the attic space might one day be converted or floored…?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873786#Comment_121873786

Yes there was never any forward thinking in the past.

If flooring your attic you'll have to lay timbers across joists anyways, so for some of these you'll have to make cuts to accommodate existing cables. That's the reality of it, it's too much work to redo everything perfect so you inevitably have to compromise your work to facilitate someone elses shoddy job.

Either that or you spend way more time and money

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121874238#Comment_121874238

It's been a regulation for a long time that attic cable wiring is tidy

Funny wiring in switches, or even fairly simple two or three way wiring in switches can be a real head scratcher to work out. I just try to keep it simple and logical.

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121874271#Comment_121874271

There's 3 methods that have been in general use for domestic work

The 3-plate ,singles method and looped t+e at switches

Plenty more methods outside of that esp. in industry and commercial

Claw Hammer

My solution to this is to put the switch into the ceiling beside the trap door with an led lit switch. That way I can see, without opening the trap door, if the light is on or not in the attic. I will only be turning on the light if going into the attic so no point in having a long switch run half way down the wall outside. No point in putting the switch into the attic since it will be dark when the attic is opened and it is no possible to see if the light is on without opening the trap door.

monseiur

Another solution I've seen at a friends house at the weekend - he put a small red bulb (the type you see in Sacred Heart type lights) in the corner of the kitchen ceiling. This is wired into the same switch as attic light so both are on/off at the same time. So if he forgets to switch off the light in attic he or someone will spot the tell tale red light on in kitchen. House is a bungalow so it was an easy fit.

tomhammer..

If you're accessing the attic a lot a light switch in the landing area with neon is probably simple as any

The red bulb and mechanical switches is overthinking it

Trapeze

Many years ago I wired the feed for my pull switch in the attic from the light in a children's bedroom. That way if I forgot to turn off the attic light it would only be on when the bedroom light was on.

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121882020#Comment_121882020

Another over complicated method of wiring an attic light

Sure ya risking a blackout up there if someone turns off bedroom light

timmyntc

With a modern LED bulb it'll cost you no more than 20eur a year if you left the attic light on that long.

Not worth putting in such complicated solutions.

If you really want to save energy, just make sure to double check that there are no lights on in attic before you close the hatch, like a checklist every time you shut it.

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121882210#Comment_121882210

All nonsense solutions it has to be said

Neon switch seems the most elegant solution to me. Put it next to the hatch out of the way. Job done. You won't leave it on by mistake for more than a day.

Simple.

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121882241#Comment_121882241

Correct

Sure the other solutions sensor and secondary switch are creating the risk you're trying to mitigate against

Namely the light being on and going un noticed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121882269#Comment_121882269

Also they run the significant risk of going out leaving you stranded in the dark.

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121882277#Comment_121882277

Both have risk of light staying on for sensor or going on and /off for secondary switch

Also a hazard of light going off

A sacred heart lamp is just overkill also

Has to be said for correctness

Bruthal.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121848373#Comment_121848373

I'd say if you were around when electrical lights appeared, you'd be saying "are people too lazy to light candles now"

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884298#Comment_121884298

Ya hear different opinions from inspectors and they're not always right unfortunately unless they're just quoting rules

Way back my first inspector said anyone putting neutrals in switches should be shot. Next one said loop t+e to switch

It turned out to be an improved method for domestic lighting

The 3-plate lighting method and ring final socket circuit shouldn't be used for domestic work as they create unnecessary hazards in domestic