Ireland - now considered one of most vulnerable countries in the EU (defense wise)

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944222#Comment_121944222

All true. Our attitude is 'it'll never happen' fine until it does then we'll complain 'why didn't we do anything about it'

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944222#Comment_121944222

And this kind of thing. Not maintained but still effective

That is a tourist attraction these days, it is not remotely effective.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944759#Comment_121944759

I see we are parroting the "Russian speakers are secretly Russian" trope so beloved by the Kremlin now.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944864#Comment_121944864

Well trope or not 5,000 have Russian passports! What does that tell you?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944893#Comment_121944893

That they don't want to be in Russia.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944759#Comment_121944759

Sorry what? Carrier battlegroups?

60k Russian speaker. So what they speak a language. That doesnt mean sh1t all else.

Your fantasies are ridiculous. The reaches are gymnastic. Oooh they speak a language therefore theyre ripe for recruitment. What a dumb theory.

aidanodr

Perhaps the UK is not too far behind us?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/03/26/weakened-uk-military-two-months-war-russia/

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946372#Comment_121946372

Carrier battlegroups was someone else's fantasy, not yours I admit.

However, where would it be logical to start to recruit people? Makes sense if they speak the language and anyway 5,000 are Russians! Not all of course are pro Putin but a fair number would be. Look at the cars with the Russian flags flying on the M50 when the war broke out with Ukraine!

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121947143#Comment_121947143

So does this language based recruitment thing work both ways?

Do our local German and French speakers etc work with us? And all our local Polish and British?

lala land stuff.

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944854#Comment_121944854

Yes, it's a tourist attraction and a hiking trail. Still wouldn't get a tank over it tho. ;o)

Redliketoast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929095#Comment_121929095

Flew through our airspace a number of times also. Probably testing the UK (cold war style)

Redliketoast

I really dont understand the issue here. Some people say we are fine. Some people say we are not fine. But why so annoyed with each other?

There are 4 options:

1) We do nothing. Continue as we are. Chances are no war is coming and even if it does, we will never have an army significant enough to actually keep us safe, let alone win a war. Unless we use Israeli levels of money, our army will never be superior.

2) We join an alliance. We could join NATO but for that we would be required to spend a % of GDP on defence. We would also be required to take part in wars that we dont agree with (Afghan, Gaza) or even wars we do agree with (potentially defence of Ukraine for example) but would mean Irish people could be killed.

3) We "outsource". Pay the UK or a private org to protect us. We contract it out. They help scare off any nasty Black beard types or Chinese balloons. They would also be there to help in possible terrorist issues or (probably will never happen) invasion.

4) We take care of it ourselves. We invest in our defence force but use it as a resource rather than a safety net. The defence force could be used for search and rescue, coast guards, fire services for rural towns/villages, help with high level security such as big events (think Europa league final, the Euros, Foreign president visits etc). They could also be used as part of the "Armed response unit". It doesnt need to be an "Army"but a "Defence Force" under one heading. I would encourage people to join the Scouts, or the RDF and train everyone who would like to learn. IF there ever was a BIG EVENT, we would have loads of trained citizens like they do in Finland. I would build sports halls around the country that could become fallout shelters.

I get that some people think its all over reacting and thats fine. But its like Insurance. You dont need it until you need it. I would certainly look at the 4th option as it would be a resource for the country. It would also start giving people a bit of ownership in the country. Kids and a lot of Adults would learn some respect. We have a lot of what is in option 4 already. We have Coast Guards, Part time Firefighters, RDF, Scouts, ARU, etc. Its about rebranding and retraining. Its about expanding where we can over time and growing it into an actual Defence Force.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948788#Comment_121948788

Your 4th option is the best. You'd need a professional army as well to be a deterrent remember we don't have to 'win' outright just make it not worth it.

sandbelter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948788#Comment_121948788

Agree, option 4 is best.

It also allows Ireland to skew its spending towards, naval, air and infrastructure protection/cyber strategies which is more aligned to our interests. Also as deep water mining gathers steam, it will allow us to protect our economic zone, we can't see this squandered the way we did our fishing grounds.

Anything like formal alliance would require a skew towards an army capable of fighting in Scandinavia, Baltic or North German plan.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950690#Comment_121950690

It's a waste of money. You want to spend billions so we are what? a road bump?

Also billions for what reason? we still won't have any natural resources etc for a country to make it worthwhile.

Until someone can provide an actual reason to invade Ireland then we are spending more than enough

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952253#Comment_121952253

One reason is denial of ports airfields to another power. Are we immune to attack?

jackofalltrades

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121953668#Comment_121953668

"YeS BuT WhO Is GoInG to InVaDe Us", Ad nauseam until you give up the will to live.

And unfortunately I don't feel like you're arguing against a minority element here. I think there's a lot of Irish people who feel defence is some kind of discretionary spending that can you be ignored. Even our Taoiseach is going on about what we spend on International aid, while sidestepping questions on our dismal security spending at a European conference on security, while a war is going on in Europe.

purplepanda

There's been a reduction of $.59Billion in annual spending allowing for inflation comparing the 2008 to the 2023 defence budget. Every single year in-between has had substantial spending reductions totalling over $6B. (not allowing for inflation)

The Defence budget is nowadays certainly inadequate, those who insist that the 2023 budget is fit for purpose, are totally misguided, 2008 was a much more benign international defence environment, particularly in Europe.

It's time to properly restore the defence budget, which was cut due to economic reasons after 2008, to traditional historical levels of expenditure. Also some of the $6B savings should be now invested to modernise & update the Irish Defence Forces as recommended in the recent Defence Commission report.

Those that go into meltdown at the mention of minor "increases" in defence spending certainly need to look back at the historical picture, when the budget was drastically cut for 14 years.

https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/IRL/ireland/military-spending-defense-budget

https://www.hargaden.com/enda/inflation/calculator.html

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121955197#Comment_121955197

Normally countries are invaded by another state nearby. In the last 450 years, we have been invaded from France, Spain and England/Britain, three historically bellicose states. Currently we're in a non-military alliance with two of those countries, and we have cordial relations with the third.

Another very bellicose state lies some way off to our west. Luckily, we have good relations with them too.

Historically, these are the most likely candidates for invasion. Russia is not close by, and does not have a history of carrying out sea invasions. Realistically I don't see any great need to worry about them, but of course there is no harm in considering the possibility - and then rejecting it because they were not able to hold down Afghanistan, and are not making enormous headway in Ukraine, two bordering countries at the time of the invasions.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121955802#Comment_121955802

I wouldn't really disagree with this but will this hold into the future with climate change, resource wars and an increasing destabilized UK and a current European war? If you can say no with certainty then ok!

Cluedo Monopoly

I would rather spend billions in reforestation than increase the defence budget by another cent. It would be ludicrous to start spending money on expensive war toys for some imaginary war. The arms manufacturer would be sniggering at our stupidity.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121939133#Comment_121939133

We are long past the age of biplanes where planes would be needed for an airfield to attack the U.K.

No NATO country is going to risk a major war by putting troops on the ground to defend a country it has no treaty with or that doesn’t have any major strategic resource (such as oil).

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957090#Comment_121957090

No doubt there were many in Ukraine who would have said that or something similar ten or fifteen years ago.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957552#Comment_121957552

No they bloody wouldn't.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957556#Comment_121957556

The most popular (ie voted for) political party in Ukraine in the decade leading up to the invasion of Crimea was the pro-Russian “Party of the Regions”. They would have ridiculed the idea of a Russian invasion.

Had most Ukrainians disagreed with that view and regarded a Russian invasion as any form of real possibility, they’d have applied to join NATO decades ago as their more paranoid / realistic neighbouring countries such as Poland did.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957765#Comment_121957765

Ah stop. Comparing a rock in the Atlantic to a massive country in Eastern Europe with huge strategic value is crazy. Many powers have invaded parts of Ukraine at some point including the Mongols and the Vikings! Ukraine is only independent since 1991.

Redliketoast

All of this "who would invade us and why would they bother?" Crap is such a lazy argument.

Its like saying why bother having an anti virus on your computer or a password on your email.

If you think there is no reason for someone to attack you, then you are already way behind.

Why did someone (the russians) attack us with a cyber attack? Money

Why would someone likely do it again? Money

Why would someone actually attack Ireland? I dont know. Maybe we could ask the American soldiers next time they stop off in Shannon? Maybe we could ask the Russian fighter jets while they are flying over Ireland. Maybe we could ask fishing vessels who constantly fish in our waters without fear?

There are loads of reasons and ways to attack or invade Ireland. The motivations are money, aiding their enemies, providing a stop over for aircrafts travelling to black sites. Thats not all. What about being the only land mass attached to a UK nation!!! Do you think the UK are immune to terror threats or invasions?

If you really think nobody would bother attacking, you really have zero idea about the subject.

Also if you think what we currently spend is enough, you are deluded. Just look at the numbers. We have a massive recruitment crisis in the Irish military. We dont even need to invest billions. We just need to restructure to a model that is actually useful to what we need.I think we spend about 1B on defence. But if we did a reorganisation and moved some services across (along with their budgets) we would see thatwe already invest but its about how its spent. Of course we need to increase spend. But moreso on things that are multipurpose. For example search and rescue planes/choppers that double as regular transport for the islands and ambulance services. These could all be "military" personal. So training people and giving them a decent wage. But having them as part of our Defence forces.

Ireland needs a restructuring of our defence forces.

(Id even make an post, military but thats probably a little too right wing for some to stomach lol )

Redliketoast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957090#Comment_121957090

Ah now. Mother nature alreadybtried to kill us with covid. Id rather deforestation lol.

Joking of course.

We do need to increase what we spend on defence. Thats not in question. It has already been established. But we need to be smart about it.

We relied in other countries to evacuate irish people from conflict zones. Thats not acceptable. Even if that scenario is "imaginary".

Spidermann1

Defence forces can't even recruit or retain staff as it is. Better pay is the only option to get the numbers and quality of staff. Unbelievable that the air corps still don't have any fighter jets in this day & age! We're totally dependent on the brits for air defence!

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948788#Comment_121948788

 We would also be required to take part in wars that we dont agree with (Afghan, Gaza) or even wars we do agree with (potentially defence of Ukraine for example) but would mean Irish people could be killed.

Irish troops were involved in Afghanistan under the auspices of the UN anyway, and neither Gaza nor Ukraine have anything whatsoever to do with NATO. So no, we would not be "forced" to take part in them.