Ireland - now considered one of most vulnerable countries in the EU (defense wise)

aidanodr

From article in todays ( 03/03/2024 ) Sunday Times ..

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/36d59ed0-25e2-46b1-8f14-76fb231c02ea?shareToken=5623c8614285f74aaadf02a6e62290ef

I would tend to agree with this + add dependence on UK?

The government is coming under intense pressure to increase the strength of the Defence Forces and has been accused by critics of free-riding on the protection offered by Nato.

The Irish Navy, numbers wise is at about 755 as of last June. So small, there is not enough to man the ships, of which most are parked up in Cork / Haulbowline

The Irish Army, numbers wise is at 7550 active personnel and 1706 in the reserves ( Figures - end of 2023 ) ..

Lets say our airforce is pretty much non existent.

( Compare all above to ESTONIA at end of post who's pop is 1.3m )

Then there is pretty much NO military radar .. so we have no clue of what's flying over us or in our Exclusive Economic Zone let alone in our actual waters or over head in our country.

Every day I keep hearing we are a very very very rich country, yet here we have a completely defenseless country due to years, decades of neglect, political and otherwise.

Personally I think the jig is up, the emperor has no clothes.

BTW - I am NOT even getting into this whole NEUTRALITY thing we have going on and whether we should be or not. Regardless, DEFENSE is not a thing one can nor should leave slide just because you are Neutral. We still have to & should be able to defend ourselves rather than depend on the kindness of strangers. You can be a Neutral country but also have a strong defense system.

"For Ireland, whether they are neutral or not, investing in your armed forces will help to deter any enemy. Even if you are a neutral nation, you have to be able to show you will defend what is yours.”

Finally we have the top IT companies based here. Surely we should have the best, second to none Hybrid warfare capability ( cyber attacks etc ) .. but no, we dont, again come up real short here apparently.

Ireland is now considered one of the most vulnerable countries in the European Union to conventional warfare and Russian hybrid tactics, involving everything from disinformation campaigns to sabotage of critical infrastructure.

So this article should surely be a wake up call? Discuss ..

TherapyBoy

We’re covered.

Our geographical proximity to the UK, our membership with Europe & our ties with the United States means we’re safe enough. It’d be too big a risk to try something here. Europe, the UK & the USA will keep everyone (including themselves) on the level.

Peter Flynt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846703#Comment_121846703

That's an irresponsible way for any nation to rely on its defence. FF/FG have spent years cutting in defence, the navy and elsewhere.

aidanodr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846703#Comment_121846703

I hear that alot actually. Sod ourselves taking any responsibility for our own defense. In fact one person said to me recently pretty much sod the UK, US, EU, NATO in this regard, who cares, because they will HAVE TO defend us, they cant leave us as an open back door, so just sit back and let them at it.

I really think that "opinion" is alot more out there in Ireland than you think

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846703#Comment_121846703

I'm not sure how much longer we can get away with that sponger type attitude given the changes happening in the global order. Ireland is a weak spot in European defence and has a pretty important maritime area to patrol. By failing to do even the basics this inherently increases the risk profile for other countries as well.

There is a lot of pressure on the government to start fixing the issues with the defence forces.

TherapyBoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846735#Comment_121846735

..and they’re right.

Like I said, we’re covered 👍🏼

Eoinbmw

The gardai are not even up to scratch never mind the defence forces!

We have to many feckin ministers however any chance of conscription for politicians?

TherapyBoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846768#Comment_121846768

With a bit of luck whoever tries it on here will send the politicians to the chopping block before the rest of the world rescues us 😁

aidanodr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846768#Comment_121846768

The more eastern Europe countries came out recently suggesting many countries in Europe now need to consider conscription

UK straight out of the traps with ..

https://news.sky.com/story/head-of-armed-forces-plays-down-conscription-fears-and-says-uk-not-on-the-cusp-of-war-13082342

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846703#Comment_121846703

We may be "covered" to certain extent (in a similar way to other small countries that are in Europe/EU and fortunate enough to be well away from the big border threats + surrounded by friends), but it is not open ended, and won't protect us completely IMO.

Public here should wake up out of the mindset of this comment.

This country is not "neutral" as regards the likes of Russia currently, or possibly other countries in coming years (we are integral part of the US led West broadly, and would not want that any other way). It is no longer flying beneath the threshold of notice as a target for attacks either, as it was in the Cold War.

Another problem is loss of sovereignty and independence we will face and have to accept if we increasingly need to lean on the cover provided by others in the EU, the UK, the US etc., the world grows more dangerous, and we let ourselves remain defenceless.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846742#Comment_121846742

We are not covered with regards to who is flying in our airspace due to no primary radar AFAIK and how are we on knowing who is in our waters?

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846735#Comment_121846735

Yep. They will look after us. Whether that is right or not.

Estonia is right next door to Putin's Russia so it makes sense for them to have a better defense than us.

Our own army are busy doing UN peacekeeping tours.

Cienciano

I doubt any political saying he's going to double or triple our defence spending for an imaginary invasion would be very popular.

osarusan

If Ireland introduced conscription and decided to spend the utterly, eye-wateringly, astronomical amounts needed to develop a defence force capable of defending the country from an attack by a country with the military capacity of...say...Portugal, the public would go mental.

aidanodr

@fly_agaric said "This country is not really properly "neutral" as regards the likes of Russia currently"

I think people get a bit mixed up here re NEUTRALITY, being NEUTRAL. You can be Neutral and also should have a proper DEFENSE system in place. Neither are mutually exclusive. Being Neutral does not exempt you from DEFENDING your own country. This is what the Neutrality debate leaves out as part of the discussion.

In the OP I also mentioned HYBRID warfare .. eg cyber attacks etc and having an appropriate top drawer defense against these. We fall well below par in this regard too eg the recent HSE cyber attack amongst others. And this is a country awash with the worlds top IT companies

For years many companies here big and small have been victim to serious ransomware attacks ... weekly, but its never published. I have heard they get IT companies who come in to fix it or negotiate on there behalf to sign an NDA .. so a large amount of these in country ransomware attacks go by unknown to most here. Why the NDA? the view of most of these large companies is they do NOT want it known they were attacked as it would impact on there bottom line .. perspective clients steering away from them, bad publicity and so on.

Jack Daw

Our lack of proper defence is embarrassing , the fact that none of the political parties in this country have ever considered doing something about it aswell is embarrassing.

Countries smaller than us have proper defence forces how difficult is it for us to spend a proper amount on defence to make an issue of national importance .A large part of the issue appear to be all the idiots in the country that think any mention of improving the defence forces means were going to head of invading the rest of the world instead of it just being a basic requirement of being a sovereign nation.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846829#Comment_121846829

I may be wrong, but I have had impression part of everyday understanding of Irish neutrality and its (good?!) consequences for level of military/defence spending is that we are a kind of unalligned world peacemaker and honest broker that most other countries on Earth love, and we never offend anyone!

So we don't particularly need to worry too much about someone wishing to harm us out of malice -> why spend money on the military /defence (esp. given we also have the good location/strong friends covering us, already mentioned). I don't think it holds up IMO, and expect dodgyness/riskiness of it as a policy may become more apparent in future.

aidanodr

Also lets add this to the conversation here. And this is what might stir urgency amongst the well paid part of the public that have jobs in FDI and the politicians.

US will eventually say, maybe sooner than we think, that Ireland IS NOT a safe base for its Multinationals if we dont take our defense INC HYBRID WARFARE / Cyber defense seriously. Im amazed, in this regard, how we have got away with it this long

I could even see this more so happening WHEN trump takes office in Jan 2025

aidanodr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846875#Comment_121846875

100% @fly_agaric

RoyalCelt

Considering the social **** show in our country I can't advocate a big army increase right now. Maybe in 20 or 30 years.

macraignil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058338841/ireland-now-considered-one-of-most-vulnerable-countries-in-the-eu-defense-wise

Comparison to Estonia is a bit odd since it is a former soviet block country next door to a terrorist state which claims ownership of all of the former soviet union so it makes complete sense for them to have a larger armed force. I think Ireland is in a very different socioeconomic environment being surrounded by the EU, UK and the friendly states of north America where as well as being developed democracies there are large numbers of people with Irish ancestry that would have a dim view of aggression against Ireland. I think the level of investment in the conventional defense forces here reflects the low chance of invasion by a neighbouring country.

The hacking of the HSE computer network and other cyber security threats have made it clear that defense in an environment where the economy is increasingly dependent on computer networks and systems means we now need to get more serious about addressing this threat and investing in not warfare but simply security of our IT infrastructure is needed. Drone technology is also advancing rapidly and I think a dedicated drone technology division of the Irish defense forces should be set up to organise surveillance of our borders and critical infrastructure and help build an industry here that could help out in conflicts like Ukraine where leading edge drone technology is helping eliminate terrorist threats.

BorneTobyWilde

If it was a United Ireland I'd be worried, not so much when the UK are part of us.

But if it was a United Ireland, Russia could take us in a day, and Nato nor the UK would defend us, it would be the same as Ukraine

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846945#Comment_121846945

Why would you be worried about Russia "taking us" in a day if we had a united Ireland?

nullzero

We're reactive in how we approach everything in Ireland.

We had to be nudged into having the Garda Armed support Unit by the escalation of gang violence after the regency attack, previously having Regional Support Units dotted around the country.

Even now we'd be a soft target for a terrorist attack, ironically given our history with domestic terrorism.

Increasing defence spending in the midst of a housing crisis would go down like a lead balloon undoubtedly, but some incremental changes need to be set in place over the next few years, regardless of our defense status, our ability to deal with things like rioting like we saw last November aren't exactly optimal, we need to re examine what is required to police and defend our growing population.

Jinglejangle69

We are perfectly situated in the middle of the US and the UK for Putin to invade and cause a massive headache for NATO as we aren’t in it.

People may laugh but the world is very volatile at the moment, and nothing is off the table.

Kermit.de.frog

The next time the government goes to thumb a lift off the French to get Irish citizens out of a war zone I hope they say no publicly. Then the government will be forced to explain to the population why we couldn't be arsed having even one medium or heavy lift transport aircraft like every other country and that's why Irish citizens were left in danger. It's the only way things are going to change.

Galwayguy35

It's a pathetic situation we have to rely on the Brits to basically cover our arses because successive Governments won't give the defence forces the money they need.

We're freeloaders.

Maybe if we stopped sending hundreds of millions to corrupt third world countries and used it to get our army and navy the equipment they need it would make more sense.

aidanodr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846911#Comment_121846911

From @nullzero - "Increasing defence spending in the midst of a housing crisis would go down like a lead balloon undoubtedly"

From what I hear every day - We are a very very very RICH COUNTRY? Are we?? The gov are falling over money, so surely we can afford to sort more than one thing at a time?

And with respect to maybe sort it in 20, 30 years .. do we have the luxury of time to put it off until then?

Re hacking and cyber security threats @macraignil .. Or HYBRID Warfare as it is called. We are not at the races where this is concerned either. Like I said above US will eventually say, maybe sooner than we think, that Ireland IS NOT a safe base for its Multinationals if we dont take our defense INC HYBRID WARFARE / Cyber defense seriously.

Also add this - the very important transatlantic cables coming across to Ireland / Europe. Right through our EEZ and seas around Ireland. No radar or naval or aerforce assets to monitor all this

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846978#Comment_121846978

The argument about we need to spend money on other areas is just an excuse.Surely with all the money we've saved by not spending of defence over the years means we should have absolutely zero issues with infrastructure and housing .Not spending on defense has provided no benefit to the country as there are massive shortfalls in infrastructure and housing.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121847007#Comment_121847007

Falling over money for now, not too long ago we had the economic training wheels on with the IMF running the show.

I agree that we need to increase defense spending but the clowns running this country are unlikely to do so precisely because of the other messes they've made.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121847016#Comment_121847016

Agreed, but politics rarely follow logical patterns.

Whoever whinges loudest gets the attention.