How to build a railway versus how to build a road

Ronald Binge Redux

As seen on the NIR Facebook page. Truth though.

KrisW1001

Tell that to the people living along the A5...

Sadly, the left side applies to everything these days. Rail gets it a bit worse because people don't get to use a railway "for free" when it's done.

niallb

If all public transport was free at the point of use and paid for by tax allocation rail and bus might be a lot more appealing.

The whole philosophy of what public transport is needs to be looked at so that people can see it as a real alternative.

Surely crippling car use by increasing costs and restrictions shouldn't be happening before at least a plan for a better alternative is well known.

Bicycles are not the answer to everything even though they are a great last mile ingredient in a transport system.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121840615#Comment_121840615

The NTA did a report into free fares and they found it would cost €550 million to €750 million (if you included private bus companies) per year extra.

The report also found that there would be little benefit to it. That like in other cities that have tried it, yes it would lead to more people using public transport, but most of them would come from people walking and cycling, but no from motorists. Very few motorists switched to public transport.

I mean owning a car is already a lot of money, a person who can afford that isn’t really worried about a €2 bus fare!

This just leads to overcrowded public transport, with little benefit and no you have less money to invest in improving public transport because you are instead spending 750m per year subsidising it.

Most in urban planning circles have come to the conclusion that it is a bad idea.

Instead better to invest that money in better public transport, more buses/trams/metros/trains, while discouraging driving by various means. The carrot and stick.

Having said that, I do support measures to make public transport more afforadable. Guarantee that the 90 minute ticket stays at €2 for the next 10 years or if you want, reduce it to €1.50, etc. sure. Introduce a €365 annual ticket that covers all public transport. Perhaps free or reduced off peak fares.

On cycling, it isn’t just last mile connection. Somewhere like Dublin City is quiet small, specially with electric bikes, you can easily get around the city faster then car or bus, if it just had good safe bike lanes.

And as we se from Amsterdam, it can greatly help public transport too. The more people cycle, the less there are on public transport, so the more space there is for those who can’t or don’t want to cycle. This is one of the reasons Amsterdam has an amazing public transport system.

Also it is notable that Amsterdam has one of the lowest levels of traffic congestion of any European city. Who would have thought that if 50% of people are cycling that it frees up space on the road for buses and cars!

martco

imho its the aftereffects of this technocrat individuals work persisting even to this day :(

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Beeching

niallb

Hi @bk .

I describe cycling as a "last mile" solution particularly for someone like me who doesn't live in Dublin. If at all possible I take a bus to Busaras and cycle a Dublin Bike from there unless I'm carrying a lot of equipment. As it is unless a client is between the canals it can be awkward to find a suitable place to leave a bike during a meeting.

The reason I mention the Dublin Bikes in particular is that I think they should be considered as part of the public transport infrastructure. Changing the rules on GoCar and similar car sharing schemes so that you don't have to drop them back to the space you collected them from would be a great help too!

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121841630#Comment_121841630

I agree, bikes can be a last mile solution for some one like yourself who commutes into Dublin. But they can also be a complete solution for folks who live in the city.

My point is that both types of cyclist need good quality safe cycling infrastructure to feel safe and comfortable using bikes. The better the cycling infrastructure, the more who cycle, the better public transport operates, with less overcrowding and congestion.

I do think Dublin Bikes, along with Moby and Bleeper are considered part of the public transport infrastructure, I certainly have used them all, but again, the missing part is the quality cycling lanes to really make use of them.

GoCar, well that is more a case of that companies business decision. I dont think it is a government rule or anything like that. I suspect GoCar don’t want to have to deal with people leaving their cars in the middle of nowhere and them having to retrieve them. I think other cities like Paris, these sort of schemes allow you to leave the car anywhere within the city area, however I think the difference is just how much bigger these schemes are there, with far more cars and users that make that possible. Bleeper/Moby are more like that within the limits of the area that they operate in.

markpb

It’s hard to see how GoCar could work if the car could be parked anywhere at the end of the session. It would be great for the first customer but what about the next one? You’d have no idea where your car is going to be.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058338575/how-to-build-a-railway-versus-how-to-build-a-road

We don't have the population density for railways to be viable in most of the country and in places where it is viable the rest of the country complains that it's the only place that gets investment so it's not built stifling the city. If people want to live miles from their neighbours in massive houses they can't complain when public transport is crap.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121840615#Comment_121840615

Free public transport wouldn't make much difference, since public transport is largely irrelevant to where people want to go or takes so long that people would have to value their own time at zero.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121842545#Comment_121842545

The hire car companies charge extra if you return the car to a different office. That might work for Go-car.

niallb

Leaving a GoCar someplace random wouldn't help anyone.

There are GoCar locations all over the city, but if you want to drive one from from Cabinteely to Drumcondra you have to leave it locked while you do what you do and then take it back to Cabinteely afterwards to leave it where you started. One more car taking up space and unavailable to use.

Making our existing public transport system free was not what I was suggesting as a first step. It's what I believe would eventually make sense. And I would extend that to any private company receiving a public carrier license. The infrastructure needs to be built first.

What we need to look at is a National Public Transport Plan.

Individual Urban planning falls apart when people who would prefer to live near where they work climb into cars in Maynooth, Navan, Gorey, Portlaoise and Waterford at the beginning and end of each day. All our cities urban planners need to plan with those movements in mind. Minimising private car ownership is a goal that would have wide benefits and where it's unavoidable minimising the mileage and emissions of those remaining vehicles should be encouraged.

If you cross the border to the Northern part of this island you'll notice there are bus stops almost everywhere no matter how empty a place might look.

Mods, if you feel there's something worth talking about here, split it out with a relevant title. This has strayed very far from the OP which is a pity and was not my intention when I posted.

Beta Ray Bill

The huge advantage road has over railway is that it can be hilly, even motorways can have big hills (Blanchardstown exit on M50 for example)

Railways, for them to be effective, need to be mostly flat, and not have many bends, The other problem railways have is intersecting with existing infra, which never goes down well (needs to be underground - expensive OR elevated - NIMBY)

Rails and ballast need to be replaced too, but I doubt it's even close to the expense of constantly resurfacing a road.

Railways cost more upfront but deliver more as the years go on, people can't see past their noses most of the time hence the reason so little gets done with the railways (Particularly in Ireland).

Leveraging commercial freight might be a good way to get more railways built but it would need someone who really knows what they're doing and would require brain cells from ABP. Like in my mind, there should be no planning granted to industrial estates that don't have access to a railway. It can be done (See here https://maps.app.goo.gl/BvMPPff4g66dxvNx8 )

The big elephant in the room though is rail access to Dublin port which is beyond a joke at this stage. It must be the biggest port in the world relative to the least amount of rail access. I think there is 1 Stub in use of 10 that were originally constructed but have since been concreted over. And the quay on the south side has no rail access at all.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121851042#Comment_121851042

Rail freight just doesn’t make sense for Ireland, it would be hard to find a country less suited to rail freight.

We have very little in the way of heavy industry, most of our industry is light and very much reliant on just in time delivery. From Dublin, you can get to any other place in Ireland in just 3 hours by road. Much of the freight coming into the country isn’t even containerised, it is just trucks driving straight off a ferry.

Every other city in the country is also a port itself. The distances are just so short that it really doesn’t make sense to waste time to use rail freight. Most companies would need a truck to bring the freight to the rail head anyway, you might as well have the trucks skip that complexity and extra cost and just ave the truck drive to the port!

It really doesn’t make sense to try and route freight through our capital city and through the already seriously over congested rail network. It is a terrible use of resources and frankly we would be much better off focusing on improving passengers services.

riddlinrussell

I'm inclined to agree in general with that, rail reight makes sense on continental scales, its why you see so much of it in Europe and America. That said with a bit of thought there could definitely be a greater utility for it than there is at present, including considerations like industrial parks, distribution centres and ports having rail access and loading/unloading facilities.

I'd say you'd at best get 10% of freight off the roads, but that could be a lot of the heavier stuff, easing wear on roads etc.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121852099#Comment_121852099

Depends on what you're moving and where you're moving it to.

Off the top of my head Baby Milk, Meat, and Insulation products are huge exports and are bulky. (Some factories are loading over 10 trucks per day for export). How many trucks week do you think arrive at places like Ikea, Tesco/Dunnes/Musgraves distro hubs. Possibly new cars too.

You are correct though in that the RO-RO nature of the freight that's moved in and out of Dublin Port is contributing factor to why we have so many HGV's.

We're looking into the abyss as far as HGV drivers go, there is an incredible shortage on the horizon.

Freight when done correctly is very profitable, that money could be used to improve passenger services.

Cookiemunster

Unless these distribution hubs have rail connections then you still have to use HGVs at either end of the rail journey. It's much more convenient just to truck them. Especially with the size of the country and population distribution.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121852358#Comment_121852358

(Some factories are loading over 10 trucks per day for export)

This is not a particularly large amount.

Rail does not work in Ireland because you inevitably have to tranship it for the "last mile" delivery, and doing straight up road transport is just as efficient and cost effective, if not moreso.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121852478#Comment_121852478

There is a large shortage of HGV drivers across Europe and I believe that the average age of those currently working is quite high.

Rail would help reduce the need for as many drivers when compared to drivers doing end to end deliveries.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121852695#Comment_121852695

Or just fully automated trucks.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121852743#Comment_121852743

It would be quicker building a huge rail network here!

bk

Off the top of my head Baby Milk, Meat, and Insulation products are huge exports and are bulky. (Some factories are loading over 10 trucks per day for export). How many trucks week do you think arrive at places like Ikea, Tesco/Dunnes/Musgraves distro hubs. Possibly new cars too.

Non of that is heavy industry. It is a good example of light industry and notably perishable goods that need to be moved quickly and not sitting around in a rail yard for days waiting for enough freight to justify a freight run. 10 trucks a day is not a lot. Anyway, non of these locations have rail, so you still end up needing the trucks and their drivers anyway to get from the site to the railway yard. Just as easy to have the truck drive directly to the port.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121852763#Comment_121852763

I honestly not sure about that, specially when you consider how long it takes us to build even one new line!

Fully automated on Motorways is looking quiet doable, the challenge is when you get into city center locations. A hybrid system could help with that.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121852776#Comment_121852776

Ah, I was being flippant. I do think that automated vehicles are some time away yet given the issues that still exist with them.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121852695#Comment_121852695

That may be true, bus as pointed out in mine and other posts, HGVs are needed anyway as rail freight yards don't exist for the 'last mile'. And in most cases in Ireland the final destination is nowhere near a rail connection, never mind being within the 'last mile'.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121852799#Comment_121852799

I didn't say they weren't needed. I said that there's a shortage of drivers. We're going to face logistics issues unless we eitehr recruit loads more drivers (and this applies to all of Europe so we'd be competing with them on this) or we can alter our distribution patterns.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121852743#Comment_121852743

Automated trucks won't be coming in the near term, certainly not to the point that you wouldn't have a driver in te cab for supervision, and at that point it kind of defeats the purpose of what you're trying to achieve.

It seems sensible to build more "rail heads" for distribution of last mile goods in Ireland. There isn't really any reason why you couldn't have a rail head in Galway, Sligo, Cork, Limerick from which courier companies could collect freight and even "just in time" products.

riddlinrussell

If the issue is specifically a 'HGV' drivers shortage then the need for railheads and sensible logistics and distribution facilities becomes even more critical as you'll be relying on more "Van-sized" or even "Cargo Bike Sized" distribution on the goods that can be taken that way to free up HGV capacity for larger freight.

timmyntc

Surely just in time style light freight could be run along with certain passenger services? Like old school mixed-trains?

Only need to shunt end to end, and you would only do it at off peak times. Reduced capacity means there's less of an issue of freight waiting for a full load to justify separate freight trains, and midday intercity trains are not that busy anyways, I don't think it's be the end of the world to slow those services marginally to account for shunting of freight wagons

thomas385

Something I've always wondered about is the DPD depot outside Athlone along the railway line.

Would it make any sense to have bulk freight delivered there by rail, and then truck from there on to final destination? Or would it be more hassle than it's worth (delay to delivery times etc.)?