Tenant claiming notice of termination is invalid

It’s entirely reasonable and legitimate to send them a notification of termination. Everybody seems to want mollycoddling. It’s a business transaction, your tenants are not your friends. Renting does not have any certainly in this country as things stand. Should preferably be a large scale business imo, take the personal stuff out of it. I was lucky to have terrific tenants, and there was mutual respect, but business-like.

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121845232#Comment_121845232

What do you mean again?

And nowhere in his opening post does he mention handing them the letter or talking to them. Feel free to point out where it does.

alias no.9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121845245#Comment_121845245

Hired a solicitor to devise a notice of termination, that's the limit of what the OP said that they engaged a solicitor to do, all other solicitors interactions have been imagined by you.

Given the strict process that must be adhered to, this was the right thing to do. Friendly chats do not count as valid notice of termination of a tenancy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121845268#Comment_121845268

Exactly. It must be business-like. If a landlord needs/wants to sell and does it by the letter of the law etc, there’s no negotiation or chat to be done.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121844072#Comment_121844072

I really hope it works out for you, it’s your home to sell.

And I think it is abundantly clear in your opening post that you sent due legal notice to your tenants. If the are the type to badly word up a fake document on LibreWriter they are not the type who will reasonably chat either. It’s your house to sell, your asset. Renting is what it is in Ireland, not your fault there’s nowhere to go.

To remind folk, your opening post, only a page before, very clearly states you issued due notice. You’d want to be hard of thinking not to understand it.

TheChizler

Did you also send them an official statutory declaration saying the reasons for termination and copy the RTB on the termination notice? Both are requirements for the notice to be valid.

https://www.rtb.ie/images/uploads/old/Registration/Notice_of_Termination_-_Landlord_intends_to_sell_0612-23.docx

Above is a template for notice of termination to sell a property.

Below is the notification form to return to RTB same day

https://www.rtb.ie/images/uploads/forms/RTB_Notice_of_Termination_Return_Form_Nov_2022.pdf

I would imagine solicitor prepared the appropriate form for tenant and gave advice accordingly.

Last year I sent a Part 4 notice giving the due time, and this resulted in tenants’ decision to seek mortgage and bid to buy it, which I agreed to. All done above board, solicitor advised accordingly as I would expect any solicitor worth their salt to do.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121844181#Comment_121844181

I’ve heard good things about MABS, well worth OP’s time to investigate. They help make a suitable budgeting plan and sometimes help negotiate with creditors.

https://mabs.ie/

Danick

Yes I did - I handed it to them personally

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121845760#Comment_121845760

Couldn’t ask more than that

JVince

Maybe a chat is needed.

Let them know that future landlords will always look for references.

A good reference from an immediate past landlord is very valuable in today's market.

Maybe allow an extra couple of weeks, and let them know that you will provide a good reference if they vacate by the agreed date.

But if not, no reference will be provided.

Just a pity there is no register that checks can be made.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121845760#Comment_121845760

And what about the RTB copy?

xyz13

Registered post was/is the way to go.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846053#Comment_121846053

Just curious, but how does this work?

When the landlord sends a copy of the NoT to the RTB and something is incorrect, do the RTB contact the landlord to let them know? Presumably if everything is valid as far as RTB is concerned, do they contact the tenant? Does that speed up any subsequent dispute process?

If a tenant says a NoT is invalid, are they obliged to notify the RTB at the same time they notify the landlord? Is there an official form for tenants to send rtb to do that?

How is a disputed NoT resolved - can the landlord inform the rtb as soon as they know or do they need to wait until after the leave date to open a dispute for overholding?

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121851867#Comment_121851867

Not sure. I think the RTB only check anything if there's a dispute opened, they don't check all NOTs for validity. The tenant has some number of days to dispute a NOT and I'm not sure if them failing to dispute an invalid NOT essentially makes it valid and they are forced to move out, or it's still invalid and they don't have to move out once the RTB agrees, they just might be liable for some costs like you can be if you fail to tell the landlord you're staying on under part 6 at the end of the lease and they have paid money to advertise for example.

spaceHopper

You had good tenants but as soon as you became a problem they stopped caring and became bad tenants.

Make no agreements with them for additional time, if it goes to the RTB it will go against you that you did. It's like admitting the notice was invalid or even starting a new tenancy or notice period.

They had 90 days to open a dispute with the RTB, they didn't but chances are if they do the RTB will still accept it, it's all stacked against the owner. It's the way the government want it, otherwise the tenant would become homeless become a problem for them.

Reply to the letter stating they the notice was valid and a copy was sent the RTB they have not raised any objections to it. The time for them to open mediation with the RTB has also expired. Restate that they have the whole of the last day to move out and hand back the property. If they don't you will have to take legal action to have them evicted. Including contacting the RTB. You would prefer not to do so as it could lead to your and their names been published on the RTB site. You would also be unable to give them a reference for any future Landlords.

If this is going to cause problems with your own mortgage talk to your bank now and try to go interest only or some form of restructuring because it could take you up to two years to get them out and they may stop paying.

If they are from Ireland then they can move home or they may be buying their own place which is delayed. That's your best case.

You could also offer to "refund" 3 months rent on vacation of the property by the due date.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121852730#Comment_121852730

Just because a tenant does not challenge the NOT in time does not mean it becomes valid. If the landlord relies on it in an overholding claim, the tenant can arguie t was not valid and that argument could succeed and the landlord won't get a Determination order.

If the notice was indeed valid, and everything done by the book, it was valid, full stop.

I certainly would advise against any individual becoming a small-time landlord. Nothing but potential hassle, and not worth it at all.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121853849#Comment_121853849

Well that's good to hear.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121853897#Comment_121853897

Even if it is valid, it can be challenged and can't be relied on until it is declared valid by the RTB or the court. That all takes time, which is the whole point of the tenants behaviour. Anyone who doesn't understand this has no business being a landlord, big or small.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121851867#Comment_121851867

RTB make it up as they go along, I wouldn't put much stock in what they say.

I issued a tenant with a termination notice of about 3 months that was subsequently deemed invalid due to a small typo/error. Tenant didn't say anything until the day before the notice was up, raised a case with RTB. Case took place about another 2 months later, first thing I did was enquire why the case was proceeding in the first place, seeing as the challenge had come after the 28 day period in which such challenges can be brought (it was 80-odd days before they informed me it was being challenged and they raised a case).

RTB agent said "that only applies to valid notices, there's no time limit for invalid ones". I asked "wait, so you have 28 days to challenge the validity of a valid notice, but you can challenge the validity of an invalid notice whenever the hell you want?"......Yes, was the answer. I just had to accept it. I still wish I'd taken it further, tbh.

Dav010

I was reading this newspaper article, thinking it was just another scumbag tenant when this line jumped out:

”The RTB ruling noted it is an offence to knowingly mislead an RTB Tribunal and a conviction could lead to a €4,000 fine or a six-month prison sentence.”

Not sure if this was always the case, or whether it was introduced in the most recent amendments, but it seems just, to punish those who make false claims when entering disputes.

https://archive.ph/cTcd9

meijin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121857728#Comment_121857728

That's a standard note added in every Tribunal report, if you check previous RTB rulings, nothing unusual there, and seems to apply to providing false evidence to the Tribunal, not having fake claims for a dispute.

Up to the Tribunal to decide if the case has merits or not.

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121857648#Comment_121857648

Easiest solution to the whole mess would be that the notice gets sent to both the RTB and the tenant. The RTB then look at it and press a button to declare whether it is valid or not within a day or two of receiving it.

Its not really that hard for them to implement such a system. Lots of companies have systems where you submit a document or form or whatever and they approve it or tell you to submit again after it is checked within minutes of it arriving. But instead we have a holy mess that caused so much trouble and takes months or even years to sort out.

spaceHopper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864120#Comment_121864120

They don't want to, it keeps people off the streets and from been the government's problem. The RTB isn't impartial its' there for tenants.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864352#Comment_121864352

I've phoned them before to seek advice from a landlord's POV and they wouldn't entertain me at all as they "have to be impartial and, more importantly, have to be SEEN TO BE impartial". Funnily enough, when I phoned back later pretending to be a tenant with the same issue, they've no problem dishing out advice and being partisan all of a sudden was no issue.

Selling that apartment was the best thing I did in the last 5 years.

meijin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864120#Comment_121864120

So you want to replace the Adjudication and Tribunal with a 1-day check and one click by RTB?

Obviously what's on the paper presented by the LL, even if it looks 100% valid on its own, doesn't mean that the notice is valid in the context of the lease, circumstances of the tenancy, etc.

Both sides need to be heard, if not in RTB, then in Court.

ballyharpat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864763#Comment_121864763

What's on the lease would mainly have nothing to do with a termination, there is a standard protocol for NOT, it may be complicated, so complicated that most lay people have difficulty with it, but , if they are the ones that issue it-The RTB-then they should know if it's valid or not. There absolutely should be no need for a 'court' or 'tribunal'. Therein lies the problem. You really think its a benefit, that even issuing a NOT, should go through the court? not to mind the over holding that goes along with most of this nonsense that is driving even more landlords from the business. Here is a landlord selling, or trying to, there is another just after commenting how he was treated by the RTB, other potential landlords may be reading, current landlords are looking on and getting fearful, and you think it should be made even worse?

spaceHopper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864489#Comment_121864489

In 2016 I called them about two of my Dad's tenants and how to handle an issue with them. They were very helpful but that has all changed now. I'd hate to work for them it must be hell. In the end one tenant move out and the other we had to kick out. My dad was in hospital at the time and passed away do I guess the problem tenant's mother got him to do the right thing and move.

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121845319#Comment_121845319

Did you read the OP, they clearly state that there copied "all info" to RTB.