Tenant claiming notice of termination is invalid

Danick

We hired a solicitor to devise a notice of termination. It was served and all info sent to RTB. Everything is above board and to the letter of the law. Tenants ( young professional couple with no kids) had 3 months to contest it and that time lapsed. Now with less than a month to go before thy are due to leave I got an amateurish letter saying the termination notice is invalid. No reasons were provided as to why it is invalid. What can I do - we had planned to put it up for sale in April? Thanks

meijin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058338288/tenant-claiming-notice-of-termination-is-invalid

Nothing. They still have one month to leave, right?

I don't think you need to do anything at the moment.

Did your termination notice state the time you will be conducting a visit to inspect the property with the intention of deposit return and key collection?

If so then turn up at the property at the given time and carry out the duties.

They are no longer tenants from that moment if everything is above board.

havana

if there was something wrong with the NOT the RTB would have written to you. I got a letter from them as I missed a document in the notice I sent the RTB (the tenants had received all relevant docs).

meijin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121830063#Comment_121830063

"carry on the duties"? Not exactly.

If they don't leave, you can file a dispute with RTB for overholding, and follow the process through RTB.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121830360#Comment_121830360

He will know when he turns up to the doorstep on the day of termination. The OP has no obligations in communicating with the current tenants until the day when he rings the door.

They are no longer tenants from the moment the contract expires

meijin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121830419#Comment_121830419

So he rings the door and does what exactly?

CramCycle

I get people's point but in reality the OP should have a letter from his solicitor to the tenants by registered post confirming that the notice was valid. Otherwise they will be there with everything still in place. Sounds like something they were advised to do over the phone by an organisation that doesn't know the law as well as it claims.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121830450#Comment_121830450

Weird I have to spell this out.

He would turn up to the property as normal to conduct the inspection in relation to returning the deposit and getting the keys.

At this stage nothing as changed.

The OP will need to decide what happens next at that specific time.

CramCycle

The letter should reconfirm the date and time of inspection.

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058338288/tenant-claiming-notice-of-termination-is-invalid

It would appear that your tenants are not happy and don't want to leave and now possibly intend to play the system to buy more time. If they believe the notice is not valid they must take a case to the RTB.

A letter to you is of no benefit to them however do nothing without speaking to your solicitor

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121830419#Comment_121830419

They are tenants until any dispute with the landlord has been dealt with by the RTB.

combat14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121830513#Comment_121830513

do nothing without consulting your solicitor is good advice in this case

the rtb website should set out the all the correct procedures to carefully follow

JVince

Be very careful. Use your solicitor to reply to them that the notice was valid and that the house is being put on the market in April and there are no grounds for appeal.

The problem is the solicitor may have got a minor point incorrect and if so, the notice will have to be reissued.

I know one person who has over-stayed by almost 2 years. In fairness they have paid the rent in full and looked after the place, but very frustrating for the owner. (they bought at auction with tenant in situ)

reggie3434

Sound likes reality finally kicked in for these 2 youngsters and they see how hard/expensive it is to get another place, hire someone like the Viper to knock on the door!

Just selling a rental property and it's a relief, never going near that kind of hassle again, tenants left the place like a sty and then go banana's when deposit is hit, I can't understand people some times.

combat14

when is the right to purchase legislation going through?

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836046#Comment_121836046

What do you mean reality finally kicked in f these 2 youngsters? They have played the game cleverly. Reality is yet to kick in for the landlord. The landlord will have to begin an overholding case, get a determination order and then enforce it. The tenants can slow it down every inch of the way.

Danick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121837928#Comment_121837928

I'm a landlord in name only - I bought the place at the wrong time so it was hoping in time it would get back to the price it was originally worth. However, massive bills have appeared in my life and I have to sell it now.

LambshankRedemption

Sound likes reality finally kicked in for these 2 youngsters and they see how hard/expensive it is to get another place,

What the actual f*? You make it sound they are the ones who were trying to break the lease.

hire someone like the Viper to knock on the door!

OP, please do not take that advice. Doing so is illegal and will land you into a world of pain.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836046#Comment_121836046

I understand the sentiment but I would advise against doing anything remotely illegal. Like you I’m selling after letting, but I’m thanking my lucky stars they were super good tenants, played everything to the letter, are buying the place from me and have moved out to a distant location pending sale going through in all its legalities. Though my experience was very good, just by sheer luck, I would advise against anyone investing in property for letting. Leave it to the pension funds etc.

Danick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121843637#Comment_121843637

I didn’t invest in it as a property to let - it was my first home and planned on selling it if I ever got married but unfortunately the price slumped so low it made no sense to sell. Now I’m in real financial trouble and the value has risen since I moved out so I’m selling it out of necessity now and paid money I couldn’t spare to get a solicitor to draw up the notice - their 3 mths where they could legally respond has passed and now with a month to go they send this amateurish notice. Meanwhile my debts are rising as I was certain I would be selling it in April - it’s a nightmare

meijin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121844072#Comment_121844072

That's not how it works.

If they don't move out, for whatever reason, you need to file a dispute with RTB about overholding. The RTB will then decide if your notice is valid or not, and if they're truly overholding.

You don't decide if the notice is valid. Your solicitor doesn't decide that.

If you try to evict them before, RTB might re-instate them, and order you to pay damages on top of that.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121844072#Comment_121844072

Sounds like you need to pay a visit to MABS.

mrslancaster

The rental market is bad for anyone looking for a place to rent but the way these tenants are trying to game the system doesn't help anyone. It's a very stressful situation for both parties and the RTB need to have quicker resolutions to stop stupid carry on when everything is done by the rules.

And this situation only happens now with a tenancy but SF's Mairead Farrell and Eoin O'B have a bill before the Dail to include licensees within the remit of the RTB. Any owner who does rent-a-room or has lodgers/digs could find themselves in a situation where they have someone overstaying in their home and having to rely on the RTB process to remove them. If it passes, watch the availability of digs vanish.

reggie3434

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121837928#Comment_121837928

Ah will you settle, no one knows their intentions, best bet is to have a chat and see what is happening before going down the legal route which always takes ages

reggie3434

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121843518#Comment_121843518

Again settle, it's a joke, even if it wasn't he's a debt collector, not Pauly Walnuts going to forcefully evict them, a chat with them to see where they are is best chance of settling the issue before going down long and frustrating legal recourse.

Danick

It’s a joke - my family home is on the line here and my estate agent has a potential buyer. It’s just a horrific situation to be in and it’s already taking its toll on my wife’s health.

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121845036#Comment_121845036

A chat with them 3 months ago would have been the smart route, not a solicitors letter out of the blue.

Danick

I didn’t send them a solicitor’s letter - please read original post. The solicitor drafted the notice of termination and I handed it to them and explained I had to sell. In addition he had 3 months to contact me and we could have chatted then - instead I set the wheels in motion to sell and need the sale to maintain my family home - I have a wife and 3 very young kids.

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121845199#Comment_121845199

You didn't mention handing it to them in the OP. Having a chat with them would still have been better than handing them a letter.

We hired a solicitor to devise a notice of termination. It was served and all info sent to RTB. Everything is above board and to the letter of the law.

alias no.9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121845219#Comment_121845219

Try reading the posts twice before responding, you've failed on basic reading comprehension again.

OP, it's a tricky situation, you've done the correct thing and followed the RTB mandated process to date. All you can do is wait and see but in the instance they don't vacate on time, you'll have to file a dispute with the RTB and continue to follow the process, there are no short cuts.

It’s entirely reasonable and legitimate to send them a notification of termination. Everybody seems to want mollycoddling. It’s a business transaction, your tenants are not your friends. Renting does not have any certainly in this country as things stand. Should preferably be a large scale business imo, take the personal stuff out of it. I was lucky to have terrific tenants, and there was mutual respect, but business-like.

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121845232#Comment_121845232

What do you mean again?

And nowhere in his opening post does he mention handing them the letter or talking to them. Feel free to point out where it does.

alias no.9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121845245#Comment_121845245

Hired a solicitor to devise a notice of termination, that's the limit of what the OP said that they engaged a solicitor to do, all other solicitors interactions have been imagined by you.

Given the strict process that must be adhered to, this was the right thing to do. Friendly chats do not count as valid notice of termination of a tenancy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121845268#Comment_121845268

Exactly. It must be business-like. If a landlord needs/wants to sell and does it by the letter of the law etc, there’s no negotiation or chat to be done.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121844072#Comment_121844072

I really hope it works out for you, it’s your home to sell.

And I think it is abundantly clear in your opening post that you sent due legal notice to your tenants. If the are the type to badly word up a fake document on LibreWriter they are not the type who will reasonably chat either. It’s your house to sell, your asset. Renting is what it is in Ireland, not your fault there’s nowhere to go.

To remind folk, your opening post, only a page before, very clearly states you issued due notice. You’d want to be hard of thinking not to understand it.

TheChizler

Did you also send them an official statutory declaration saying the reasons for termination and copy the RTB on the termination notice? Both are requirements for the notice to be valid.

https://www.rtb.ie/images/uploads/old/Registration/Notice_of_Termination_-_Landlord_intends_to_sell_0612-23.docx

Above is a template for notice of termination to sell a property.

Below is the notification form to return to RTB same day

https://www.rtb.ie/images/uploads/forms/RTB_Notice_of_Termination_Return_Form_Nov_2022.pdf

I would imagine solicitor prepared the appropriate form for tenant and gave advice accordingly.

Last year I sent a Part 4 notice giving the due time, and this resulted in tenants’ decision to seek mortgage and bid to buy it, which I agreed to. All done above board, solicitor advised accordingly as I would expect any solicitor worth their salt to do.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121844181#Comment_121844181

I’ve heard good things about MABS, well worth OP’s time to investigate. They help make a suitable budgeting plan and sometimes help negotiate with creditors.

https://mabs.ie/

Danick

Yes I did - I handed it to them personally

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121845760#Comment_121845760

Couldn’t ask more than that

JVince

Maybe a chat is needed.

Let them know that future landlords will always look for references.

A good reference from an immediate past landlord is very valuable in today's market.

Maybe allow an extra couple of weeks, and let them know that you will provide a good reference if they vacate by the agreed date.

But if not, no reference will be provided.

Just a pity there is no register that checks can be made.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121845760#Comment_121845760

And what about the RTB copy?

xyz13

Registered post was/is the way to go.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846053#Comment_121846053

Just curious, but how does this work?

When the landlord sends a copy of the NoT to the RTB and something is incorrect, do the RTB contact the landlord to let them know? Presumably if everything is valid as far as RTB is concerned, do they contact the tenant? Does that speed up any subsequent dispute process?

If a tenant says a NoT is invalid, are they obliged to notify the RTB at the same time they notify the landlord? Is there an official form for tenants to send rtb to do that?

How is a disputed NoT resolved - can the landlord inform the rtb as soon as they know or do they need to wait until after the leave date to open a dispute for overholding?

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121851867#Comment_121851867

Not sure. I think the RTB only check anything if there's a dispute opened, they don't check all NOTs for validity. The tenant has some number of days to dispute a NOT and I'm not sure if them failing to dispute an invalid NOT essentially makes it valid and they are forced to move out, or it's still invalid and they don't have to move out once the RTB agrees, they just might be liable for some costs like you can be if you fail to tell the landlord you're staying on under part 6 at the end of the lease and they have paid money to advertise for example.

spaceHopper

You had good tenants but as soon as you became a problem they stopped caring and became bad tenants.

Make no agreements with them for additional time, if it goes to the RTB it will go against you that you did. It's like admitting the notice was invalid or even starting a new tenancy or notice period.

They had 90 days to open a dispute with the RTB, they didn't but chances are if they do the RTB will still accept it, it's all stacked against the owner. It's the way the government want it, otherwise the tenant would become homeless become a problem for them.

Reply to the letter stating they the notice was valid and a copy was sent the RTB they have not raised any objections to it. The time for them to open mediation with the RTB has also expired. Restate that they have the whole of the last day to move out and hand back the property. If they don't you will have to take legal action to have them evicted. Including contacting the RTB. You would prefer not to do so as it could lead to your and their names been published on the RTB site. You would also be unable to give them a reference for any future Landlords.

If this is going to cause problems with your own mortgage talk to your bank now and try to go interest only or some form of restructuring because it could take you up to two years to get them out and they may stop paying.

If they are from Ireland then they can move home or they may be buying their own place which is delayed. That's your best case.

You could also offer to "refund" 3 months rent on vacation of the property by the due date.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121852730#Comment_121852730

Just because a tenant does not challenge the NOT in time does not mean it becomes valid. If the landlord relies on it in an overholding claim, the tenant can arguie t was not valid and that argument could succeed and the landlord won't get a Determination order.

If the notice was indeed valid, and everything done by the book, it was valid, full stop.

I certainly would advise against any individual becoming a small-time landlord. Nothing but potential hassle, and not worth it at all.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121853849#Comment_121853849

Well that's good to hear.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121853897#Comment_121853897

Even if it is valid, it can be challenged and can't be relied on until it is declared valid by the RTB or the court. That all takes time, which is the whole point of the tenants behaviour. Anyone who doesn't understand this has no business being a landlord, big or small.