Why don't GAA matches sell out?

dulpit

Just want to preface this by saying I'm not a GAA person, but my dad is and I've had loads of conversations with him about this. We're in Cork, Cork will play 2 hurling league games in Cork (against Kilkenny and Waterford) and will play 2 championship matches in Cork (Clare and Limerick) . There might be 1 more home game if the draw works out in All-Ireland stage maybe. But in total you are looking at 4-6 matches a year in Cork. And yet the park won't be sold out for the league games "because it's only the league" and the championship games may sell out, possibly.

Another thing my dad says is that the championship is important and needs to be retained. I can't understand why it doesn't make sense to have 10-12 counties in a league that play throughout the year, home and away with the championship element as either the end of the league (like rugby does) or as a separate cup competition (like the FA cup in England).

I know it's not right to compare sports, but if you look at say soccer in the UK they play way more matches but their attendances seem to be much higher. And there doesn't seem to be this view that some competitions are not worth viewing (e.g. the league here). My dad's view as a staunch GAA man is that the championship is all that matters, and that means that you only should expect to see big crowds at a handful of games as a result.

So my question is this - is the current way of things happening (small number of matches per year, few that sell out) the way of the future for the GAA? Or can a future be envisioned where big counties play more regularly in a competition that attracts a decent crowd all the time?

thefa

The championship will always take precedence over the league.Your dad is right here. It’s more or less ingrained from underage when you only start training in the early months and of course works its way up in gaelic sports senior inter-county where you will target development in the league. Also aided by the fact it’s the biggest sporting attraction around in the summertime with less competition.

The championship format has already been changed numerous times and it’s hard to keep everyone happy. If you go back 25 years or so, it was actually a possibility to have a one game championship season before the “back-door”/qualifiers were brought in and since you’ve had format changes to both hurling and football that involve group stages in the championship to ensures there’s no “one and done” seasons for teams training months and months. I’m sure there will be tweaks at some stage in the not too distant future.

It’s difficult to justify a comparison versus the premier league which is a league format but the most marketed and televised soccer one in the world which ensures it has far wider supporter numbers than typically available to the each county for GAA. The reach of the PL is in the 100s of millions if not a billion and the top teams have significant demand from outside their locality. Dublin county has a total population of 1.4m and Deloitte estimated Man United have 75m fans.

GAA has never been as televised either so you lose bums on seats as a result. Sky even had it for a number of years but it’s not really something that will grow the audience massively. Might have turned some die hards off with more and more games being behind pay walls these days with GAA go replacing it. Add to that the competition from other sports.

You will generally only get sell outs the more prestige games at big stadiums or local rivalries at smaller stadiums. I too am a Corkonian and think it’s another question on the Pairc and its capacity. It’s justified based on the non-GAA events but I don’t think it’s sold out yet for GAA games and I would never expect it to for the majority of the type of games held there.

cson

The grounds are too big is a primary contributor.

County Boards built for maximum capacity as opposed to optimal capacity. Dublin sell out, a few Munster Hurling Championship games will including the final, Ulster Football Final, Galway v Mayo maybe in a Connacht Final (I know the final vs. the Rossies a couple of years back sold out but Hyde Park is only rated for 18k now). Below is everything >20k in the country outside of Croker:

• Thurles 46k
• PUC 45k
• Limerick 44k
• Killarney 38k
• Clones 36k
• Breffni 32k
• Nowlan Park 27k
• Pearse Stadium 26k
• Castlebar 25k
• Portlaoise 22k

That's too many tbh, Munster with 4 >38k is madness, Killarney filled maybe once a year if Cork are decent? And they want to spend 70m on it?

breezy1985

"sold out" is based purely on the size of the stadium and is a pointless metric.

You could merge counties so games "sell out" but you won't actually have more fans per round.

Given the population of most counties the average attendances are good.

MacDanger

Games not "selling out" can be viewed in a positive way - it means the games are accessible to everyone who wants to go (albeit less so with recent price increases) and kids can be allowed in for free which makes a huge difference in terms of promoting the games

cson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121808601#Comment_121808601

Are they though?

3.5k for a Division 2 game between Cork & Kildare?

~12k for the Munster & Connacht football finals last year?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121808760#Comment_121808760

45k for Limerick and Clare and more at home wanting tickets.

48k for Clare and Kilkenny despite a combined population of 240k.

It's easy pull individual games. There is clear and well published issues in Cork and Kildare for instance. Also certainly issues with the provincial football championships and the structure of football in general.

Some sort of amalgamated teams set up won't fix the situation though. Just the same amount of fans overall but in less venues.

rolling boh

There are a lot of matches on TV and I believe a large number of 'fans' who turn up for the latter stages of the championship are there for the day out and their interest in the games in general is low enough .If a county reaches a final even folk with no interest are suddenly right behind the team .There is nothing wrong with going to one or two games a year but I just think interest is confined to a small enough number who get into the habit of going to games throughout the year .Also a county team has a low enough number of games comparison to soccer teams where the habit of seeing your team every second week for half the year does I believe sustains the interest for longer .

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121809064#Comment_121809064

The latter part of your comment is interesting. If there were more matches week in, week out, would it encourage people to come?

And by more, I mean more competitive matches, or matches in the same competition...

rolling boh

For me going to matches each week or so can create a habit and more interest can develop from that ,that is where soccer has an advantage over Gaelic games.There are quite a small number of games for a lot of county teams ,seven in the league and maybe only three or four in the championship. With that number of games and about a six month period where there is no county games I feel there is time for the sport to go off people's radar .I know there are club matches but that is a different matter .

Fr Tod Umptious

It's also the case that GAA support is very "deep".

Many GAA fans are happy to watch or outright ignore the inter county game on a Saturday night but will then attend a club game the next day in person.

Rugby fans like to go on about how their sport is popular and use examples of Ireland v Fiji selling out an autumn international in the Aviva as proof.

But they ignore the fact that the crowds are small at unattractive URC fixtures and almost non existent at All Ireland League games.

In the GAA the big games may not sell out 40k stadiums but all over the country people will attend club games in relatively large numbers.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121811186#Comment_121811186

No one ever seems to complain that Munster built Thomond Park for a few big matches rather than for the average crowd.

Can't even sell out European games now which shows the true nature of all sports crowds. They all have a core and a bandwagon which is why attendance has tanked at many big football clubs. It's also why Ireland has way way more United and Liverpool fans than City and Everton ones.

csirl

Often wondered if the GAA would be better with smaller venues with better facilities. Counterintuitive, but may increase league attendences.

Coillte_Bhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121811201#Comment_121811201

Absolutely agree, compact 10 to 20k stadia with proper seating, catering facilities etc would surely attract more fans. They could include a large terrace to be opened only for the one off big cship games that might draw a huge crowd.

Also re the OP i think its pointless comparing the situation to soccer, inter county GAA is a representative format, players also play with their clubs, and many fans also will follow both county and club throughout the year. That situation doesnt exist in soccer. You also have a defined season in soccer and a culture of fans buying season tickets where they know exactly how many games they are going to see.

KaneToad

It all depends on the product available and how the interest in it is generated. Someone mentioned that insignificant URC rugby games get small crowds.

This isn't really the case for Leinster. They have healthy crowds, year round, at the RDS. This is off the back of 1) relatively successful team 2) national team success 3) optimal size of stadium (despite being very basic quality) 4) large population within 1.5 hrs in Leinster 5) successful "match day" events: meet players, mascot, half time kids matches, free flags etc

Sport is primarily the business of entertainment. People sometimes lose sight of that. Fanaticism will only ever sustain a small % of the crowd. The fair weather and band wagon jumpers are exactly what all teams need.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058337582/why-dont-gaa-matches-sell-out

Soccer in the UK is a behemoth, GAA grounds are generally not a nice place to spend your time- ugly, oversized, monolithic, open to the elements, poor utilities. There’s no “show” other than the game. If the game is crap there’s not much else to enjoy.

ideally Gaelic football in Ireland would only have 10 to 12 teams playing a league format against each other but the county system is the tradition and it will be hard to break from.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121811266#Comment_121811266

Yeah but you still need the big stadia for provincial finals etc and if you only have one stadium per province that is 35k-40k then the county that stadium is in has home advantage for every final. It’s a catch 22 situation.

evolvingtipperary101

The Munster hurling championship would make this attendance table in the cream of the crop competition in the world's most popular sport: UEFA Champions League - Attendance figures | Transfermarkt

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121811317#Comment_121811317

They wouldn't as it wouldn't be the home stadium of the county it was situated in. That county would have its own 10-15k seater that it would use for league matches, club championship etc. The provincial ground would host the championship games of all counties in the province plus club provincial semis and finals. So no advantage bar less travel.

Billy_the_Kid

 I can't understand why it doesn't make sense to have 10-12 counties in a league that play throughout the year, home and away with the championship element as either the end of the league (like rugby does) or as a separate cup competition (like the FA cup in England).

I think the simple reason is the players are amateurs, I dont think you can expect them to travel and be away from work & family like professional soccer or rugby players.

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121814010#Comment_121814010

so we’ll take Munster as a example to roadtest this idea.

i guess pairc ui caoimh would be the home Munster stadium as it’s by far the best. So the cork team would not be allowed to play there as an home venue and would play in pairc ui rinn? And Thurles would be redeveloped into a more compact 20000 capacity stadium? At a cost of about 100 million. And the same process would happen in Killarney and the Gaelic grounds at a cost of another 100 or so million each?

Deiselurker

The changes to the format and timing of the hurling championship has made the league less attractive. Pitches are still soft and weather cold and wet in February and managers are trying out players and tactics so you can't expect huge crowds. I've been to some hurling league games over last year or 2 that haven't been good entertainment.

There is also competition from other sports on tv at this time of year with rugby and English football at an important stage of the season. A lot of Irish sports fans have an interest in different sports where in the UK there isn't much interest from football fans in rugby or cricket.

PeggyShippen

The Munster hurling Championship alone is the most successful product the GAA has for support and numbers . People talking absolute baloney about having 'compact stadiums' of 20,000 in Limerick and Tipperary. So all Munster round Robin matches would have to go to Cork? Like come on. There's merit in smaller compact stadiums but youd be missing out in 15 or 20000 people for Munster Championship. The rest of Ireland would probably benefit from that smaller better stadium. Obviously Kilarney should never be rebuilt to the scale they are talking about.. thats simply never gonna happen now woth the costs out there. The last people to realise this is Kerry GAA

There could easily be a proper Championship league of say 8 to 10 hurling teams and that would be a great competition. The problem is those teams would have to be professional to facilitate those games. Then you'd have the likes of wealthy Dublin ,Cork,Limerick and Galway...and then the rest bringing up the rear. But I'd go and watch ..of course I would. What a competition it would be.

My reasons OP for not going to as many matches as I could. And I’m a Tipperary fan.

Time & schedule - It is alot of time to drive to thurles and home for a league game at this time of year, especially on a Saturday eve or night

Infrastructure - Semple is an ok Stadium but when it’s 60-70% empty it’s soulless. Not fully roofed either so you’ll never fill terraces because no protection from the element’s.

Plus the Fact you can probably find the match on tv somewhere or else there’s a better soccer, rugby match on that takes my interest.

All the problems GAA Have are very fixable & some new idea’s need to be tried.

atilladehun

The thing about comparing Ireland to England is that Ireland is the population of Manchester and Birmingham. You've got about 6 soccer teams that would be considered top level and even those don't get full attendance, depending on their circumstances. That's also in two very centralised areas and other sports don't have the hold in those particular parts of England like here.

The stadia in Ireland would be better being smaller and shared but the legacy of the gaa called for something very different in the 20th Century.

Having access to the GAA for everyone has positives and negatives. It can't be taken over by corporates like in soccer but it won't generate the funding.

If tickets are hard to get for every game of a season then it has to be asked if the gaa is meeting its own requirements.

Coillte_Bhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121814010#Comment_121814010

Sorry but thats a a ridiculous idea, all prov cship games in one ground? So for example Sligo v Leitrim would play in a half empty brand new 30k seater in Connacht as opposed to in their own grounds which they would fill and have a cracking atmosphere? And what about the stadia already built? Not to mention the economic benefits that towns get from hosting big games which in turn make it easier for local GAA to fundraise and get support of local business

It's a summer sport!

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121814803#Comment_121814803

Way too much is made of the GAA ban on foreign games.

What would have been different if it wasn't there. What rugby or soccer clubs would they have shared with. There is very little scope for comfortable sharing and even less back then.

Dead right that we can't compare to England though.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121814870#Comment_121814870

Maybe not at club level, but surely the likes of Cork city, munster rugby and Cork city could have a shared stadium? Instead of having Turners Cross, Musgrave park and pairc Ui rinn.

That's an issue I have with all sports. They all want to control their own infrastructure which is understandable, but then you end up with a bunch of stadiums that are empty most of the time.

atilladehun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121814870#Comment_121814870

I wasn't referencing the ban. I was talking about GAA being a community sport with the intention of representing large groups of a community during the summer in the 20th century.

This means that each county should have a stadium that gets as many people in once or twice a year during the summer with as few People turned away as possible.

As a result you have large basic stadiums with low price tickets.

I don't think the ban actually is an issue here because of our weather. Keeping pitches in good condition in Ireland is expensive and only really possible in recent years. Venues with multiple sports would have had so many issues in the past. Today its more viable although there is significant difference in size of a GAA pitch and a soccer pitch.

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121814813#Comment_121814813

A proper league would generate way more business for these towns than the once a year championship game.

70% of all GAA games are played in half empty stadiums as it it. Doesn't need to be sligo vs Leitrim. Being in a decent 25 or 30k stadium vs a run down 15 or 20k one won't make much difference. The fact it would have proper stands would actually generate more noise than a wide open Sean McDiarmada.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121815154#Comment_121815154

I agree with you about Cork but it's one of a small few examples and you would still need PuC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121815253#Comment_121815253

Fair enough. It comes up a lot which lead me to make assumptions.

Even today pitches can be a problem. Treaty fans were complaining about the state of UCD on Friday as it was still ripped up from a rugby match. Wouldn't be as much a problem in the bigger grounds with top level pitches though.

I was at Ireland Brazil in Croke Park and my seat was looking out at the massive warm up area behind he Canal goal. Still better than not being there I suppose but if I was paying the kind of money 6 Nations cost now I'de be pssed.

Speaking of rugby another downside of "top" spectator facilities is it leads to sport as a place to be seen not a match to watch. What good is 5000 more fans when it leads to a half wrecked, disinterested audience who spend half the time under the stand. Was a fair bit of it in Croke Park last night too.

dulpit

Just heard there on radio that wexford are playing Clare in the hurling league. 2 big hurling counties, apparently 4000 at the game. I get that weather plays a factor, but this is one of wexford's 6 home games this year maybe? Poor showing.

BoardsBottler

Mod Edit

Warning issued.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121815509#Comment_121815509

Are you joking. GAA tickets are insanely cheap.

Munster championship is cheaper than URC and this is a country where our scooter fans are paying for regular weekends away to see English clubs. A package for all 5 hurling league games is cheaper than 1 Man United jersey.

It's the biggest sport in the country both in spectators and playing numbers and you are talking about maybe winding it up. Is it you on the wind up maybe ?

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121815509#Comment_121815509

Must be a record to fit so much nonsense in one post.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121815910#Comment_121815910

And don't forget this was the short version 🤣

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121815620#Comment_121815620

Isn't soccer the actual biggest sport in Ireland? Seen as gaa is counted as one, even though it's actually 2 (or 3 or 4 if you include handball and rounders)...

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121816082#Comment_121816082

Soccer are pretty vague about numbers. They definitely are not the biggest spectator sport and playing numbers can change depending on what you call playing (astro leagues and the likes)

Gaelic Football is regarded as the number 1 sport in Ireland.

Billy Ocean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121815434#Comment_121815434

I was at the game myself, weather definitely a factor in the crowd, my own father who is 80 later this year choose to watch it at home for this very reason and it was absolutely freezing, thankfully the very heavy rain in the morning eased off for the game itself.

BoardsBottler

Mod Edit

Warning issued.

BoardsBottler

Mod Edit

Warning issued.

Dickie10

i seen in the program for meath v kildare they had an article looking back at 1997 leinster semi final replay, meath v kildare stand alone fixture, 56,200 in attendance. when meath and kildare population were a lot smaller than what they are today.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121817552#Comment_121817552

Was that Micko days?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121817567#Comment_121817567

That's what I was thinking.

Nothing like a bandwagon.

piplip87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121817552#Comment_121817552

The populations of Meath and Kildare have changed but if you look at who has moved to Meath and Kildare on the last 20 or so years, Dubs half of them see GAA as "bog ball" a quarter only starting supporting Dublin GAA in the last ten or twelve years, the others are a mix of die hard dublin fans amd die hard dublin fans who have added loads to local clu s but are still Dublin fans.

Leinster is a poor comparison to use as bit Meath and Kildare have fallen of a cliff in the last few decades. So when. The team is bit doing well people don't go but will still be at club games.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121817577#Comment_121817577

The man had the x factor.

Dickie10

yeah micko and meath were reigning all ireland champions

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121817590#Comment_121817590

Is it really Dubs who have moved to the commuter belt or people who are not from Dublin but work there ?

That's a genuine question and not arguing against your post as I don't have a clue about the demographics of the areas outside a few Limerick friends.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121817635#Comment_121817635

That was a great Meath team. Superb to watch.

piplip87

I can only speak from my own town, in Cavan an hour from Dublin. The vast majority of those who moved here during the Celtic Tiger era are dubs. Some have got involved with the local GAA club but they would be in Croke park quicker than Brefini come intercounty games