Surplus rifle barrel rifling query

tomtucker81

First of all, apologies if I've used the wrong term in the title, possibly should be rifle barrel rifling.

Anyway, question-

I have an old rifle. 82 years old to be exact. It was used many years ago by armed services in another country. I notice when shooting I can't get tight groups. I have changed ammo types to no avail.

Could there be an issue with the rifling, given its age? - this is what I'm thinking. It can't be me, I know I can shoot overlapping holes on a target 😂( for deer purposes, they're all in the kill zone as such, but I want them tighter)

And can rifling in a barrel be re done?

And who can do this?

Cass

There is lapping the barrel which is a fancy way to say highly polish the bore. It removes defects, fouling and other imperfections.

As for reboring a rifle barrel. It's possible, I believe, but a terrible expense and not something I know anyone here doing.

The usual route, here, is topping and tailing and then recrown. Combine that with the lapping and it'd be as good as new.

The first course of action would be to have the rifle inspected. Borescope it and see if it has pitting along the bore. This can happen with age, storage, poor cleaning, etc. No reflection on you or your cleaning regime but to thoroughly clean a rifle barrel is a long and frankly boring process and corners can, inadvertently, be cut.

I'd also check the twist rate, if not already done, to confirm the bullet/round is best suited to the rifle.

otmmyboy2

Depending on the barrel it could be bored out and sleeved possibly, but it would be very pricey I would think, and I don't know anyone in the country who does it so it would be Europe most likely.

If it is a suitably vintage rifle doing so may cause the value to be reduced though, same as a rebarrel job(replacing the original barrel with a newly manufactured one).

It would be worth bringing it into a gunsmith(not all gunshops here are gunsmiths bear in mind) and having them check the chamber, crown, rifling etc and make sure it isn't something less intrusive to fix first.

You could post up a photo of the muzzle as this is the usual spot for guns to get dinged climbing over things, getting them out of the safe etc and can cause a degredation in accuracy.

Lastly, and this has to be considered, service rifles are not tack drivers, with few notable exceptions like the Swiss.

Sniper rifles, as in rifles specifically picked off the line for attaching of scopes and sent to units for snipers use, in WW2 were anywhere between 2 and 5 MOA as their accuracy standard. And this standard was for particularly accurate rifles.

The M4 carbine used by the US armed forces even today has an accuracy standard of 5 MOA, that is a 5 inch group at 100 yards. Anything beyond that and it is out of spec and needs to be sorted, but 5MOA and under is considered to be within spec.

So an 82 year old military rifle may well be outside the above accuracy standard from the day it left the factory, let alone the intervening 82 years of use and abuse.

Just a thought, obviously not knowing what the rifle is, it's condition etc it's hard to specify further.

tomtucker81

Cass- totally understand that part re cleaning. I've it kept well for the 2 years I've had it but obviously I can't account for the 80 before that.

I can't see anything alarming standing out from visual inspection and gave it as good a cleaning as I could and keep it as such. Not to say there isn't less obvious issues that a borescope might pick up on.

Otmmyboy2 - I genuinely wasn't aware that military rifles could be up to 5moa out, I was sort of expecting similar performance to my 243, with overlapping bullet holes or at least inside 1cm of each other. They can be from 1 inch to 2 of each other- no rhyme or reason to which way they go. Same point of aim it can go slightly left or right, I have the height nearly bang on.

It's a Husqavarna Swedish Mauser from 1942, all original parts. It was used for training Swedish defense forces and its quite possible it was used in the Continuation War by the Finns.

Am i maybe expecting too much to get overlapping bulletholes, and should be content with an inch left or right of point of aim?

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121798524#Comment_121798524

I was somewhat taken aback when I found out too, given the mentions of rifle accuracy in a lot of sources vs the reality of the accuracy standards the Wehrmacht, Army ordnance board etc required.

But it is somewhat understandable, even in the present day.

For the distances and targets the firearms are intended to engage there is no need to try and squeeze out the most amount of accuracy technically possible as this has downsides for service firearms, like chrome lining barrels for ease of cleaning generally does not lend itself to increased accuracy. A firearm is just a large number of compromises and tradeoffs and then built to a price point.

From a quick look online 1-2 MOA is not outside the norm for Swedish Mausers, there are some examples which are sub MOA, and others reaching out to 3-4, but they do tend to be more accurate guns for the time period.

It looks like yours is probably doing about the level of accuracy it was designed to do, but I would encourage you to have a look at other folk's swedish mauser accuracy tests online and see for yourself.

One other thing to consider doing, there might be an issue with the stock bedding/wood-to-metal contact/fit which could be putting pressure on the barrel causing it to go off to one side or the other, but if it is going an inch left or right of point of aim that is probably not the issue.

tomtucker81

One thing I know is the information plate and the numbers on it. There was 1-3 for barrel 'condition'. 1 being normally taken out and used for snipers, 2 or 3 being general infantry. Mine is 3.

So possibly it is doing exactly as it was always designed to do and has done, it is hitting the target within an inch of the point of aim. Which when changed to deer will always be the heart/lung.

Cass

Excuse my ignorance on old rifles, it'll be fairly evident at times.

These are the very definition of military firearms and as such MOA (minute of angle) is/was probably replaced with MOM )minute of man). It was designed for multiple shots with reasonable accuracy, not to be a tack driver.

Also, and it continues to this day, mass produced barrels would not have the same level of quality as precision barrels. Speciality barrels or custom ones would be lapped and honed to the finest points including reducing the deviation (internal curve) of the bore which in mass produced barrels would be anywhere from 50 to 100 thou out. Precision barrels would reduce that deviation to less than 10 thou.

There are steps that can be taken as outlined above and a cursory inspection by a competent gunsmith would be the first step. After that, and depending on diagnosis, it's up to you what you want to do if anything can be done.

Grizzly 45

Remember too. "milspec" or "military grade " or "Govt issue" means. "The lowest bidder made your rifle/equipment for a Govt contract to maximise profits on some bit of cannon fodder, with a life expectancy of days whom,it is going to be issued to."This applies as much back then as in the here and now.

Swedes are considered the peak of the Mauser family and are genuinely very good guns in make and fit,so I doubt it is an issue of bedding or the like. However, the thing that might be affecting you is history. You said it was used as a trainer rifle for the Swedish defence forces? What training was it used for? A lot of those types of rifles can be cleaned to death by recruits having to do another white glove inspection throughout its military lifetime and whatever its round count was in training or actual combat if it was in the Continuation war. That is going to be hard on the rifling of any rifle.

Then it sat for how many years, in grease hopefully, in some warehouse in unknown storage conditions until it was finally demobbed to the civvie market. Maybe there was a bit of rust in it and someone ran a copper brush or lapping thru it to make a slightly damaged rifle a saleable rifle?..IOW it's shooting as well as can be expected for an old warhorse of that vintage. Reboring or re-rifling is going to destroy its value. It was never built as a sniper rifle but as a GI gun, if it consistently shoots 1in high at 100 yards with whatever ammo you use, then you have a known marker to work on, then use it for deer or vintage military rifle shoots.

It happens, we get used to our younger civvie-made guns shooting sub-MOA groups and are disappointed when we shoot some 50-plus-year-old iron that has been in the wars literally with unknown round counts and expect better results.

jb88

Most of the Classic Service Rifle competitions in Ireland are won by M96 Swedish Mausers in 6.5x55.

If thats what you have, clean the barrel and get some Lapua 139g Ammo and shoot some 5 round groups at 50 or 100 yards and send me the pics.

Use a 12 inch black target.

Chances are a good clean and some decent ammo are all you may need.

tomtucker81

M38 model, no drill/tap mount on it with scope.

I'll give it a good clean out and try that ammo, I've never tried that brand before.

Might be a week or so before I'm out with it again though.