Employer POV - not sure if its WFH problems or just me
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18-02-2024 3:04pm#1
Hi, I know this forum is generally from the employee point of view, but for me its a work problem so not sure where best to post, also I'd like to get advice from all viewpoints.
Im a director/self employed and we have a micro sized company, I employee 4 employees and myself who is also an employee. We kicked things off around Covid times so working from home has been relatively normal, I also happen to personally love working from home myself so ive always had a positive attitude to anyone else doing so. So to give you context, and without sounding like im bragging but its important to say this so you can see how I think others work... I basically work my absolute ass off, in fact I work harder when Im at home, I also get alot of work turned around in the hours I do do. So in summary, Im a really good worker, but perhaps not a great manager. Im neither trained in management/HR nor enjoy it or even have much of an interest in it.
We have 2 people at home at the moment, it was 1, but one has asked for it for personal reasons which he went through with us in detail (we have a very long running relationship and friendship and so it goes beyond just him being an employee for me). It's also very far, so hybrid and other things arent an option. It was either live near the company and work in the office or do this.
To cut to the point, it feels like anyone that is working from home is driving me completely insane. I just honestly cant tell if they are completely taking the piss or just working as normal and its me working myself into a frenzy.
The problem is basically that they are super super slow, and sometimes take a bit of time to answer in the chat, and I am absolutely sure their output would not be like that if they were with me in the office. Some days can be quite bad, Friday I was waiting for the guy mentioned above to get back to me as I needed his bits to continue my work. It was coming towards the evening when I finally started to see some good activity and output from him and then he offered to "stay a little later", which basically means I have to stay later too (I said this to him).
But it seems the longer this is going on the more crazy its driving me, I find myself becoming increasingly conversational with them in the chat just to see how they are getting on. We do have morning meetings but we dont measure our output very intensively.
We track hours but even then I am not really sure if Im learning anything from that. They just fill out the hours. We also agreed to start using manual statuses on google chat, the idea being it cant be vague whether you're there or not. But now I find myself constantly reminding them to use them.
Even though I love working from home myself, I am starting to develop a view that if someone wants to work from home they really have to go the extra mile to prove they can do it. I have also considered the idea that we start doing some "live" sessions, I am not sure how that would work, but basically we could use Discord and turn on our audio. But the more ideas I get the more Big Brother I am starting to feel to be honest.
My questions are:
- Are there any practical online tools that can help address this? We use google chat, we track hours, we do daily meetings. Are there better chats or workplace tools that address this?
- In your opinion, based on what Ive written, am I the problem? Am I way overthinking this and just expecting too much? Im guessing thats not easy to answer without the full picture.
I have had various chats with them, in different ways, but there is an element of me that just kinda feels like asking them at the end of every day "what the f&ck were you doing all day?"
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Mixing business with friendship is never a good idea, especially if one is doing it as a direct manager. It's impossible to say if he is taking the piss or not given we know nothing about the nature of the work. I'd be inclined to lean towards he probably is given the dynamic of your relationship.
What exactly do you say/do during your daily meetings? Your daily meetings should outline the work that is due for that day and then the next day its to get an update on what's been done. At this meeting you should be questioning him on what was done and asking why it took so long if you feel a task should jave been easier to do.
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Thanks, tbh he sort of became a friend as a result of work (prior to this), and that evolved into this, so its a bit of a strange one, but you're not wrong. And it's the reason I wont ever be hiring anyone close to me in the future, especially if ill be working directly with them.
We do software but I am trying to keep it a little vague to keep anonymous, but I also do the same work so its important to note that I can do whatever anyone else is doing, what Im really saying is I find myself comparing what theyre doing to what I could do in the same time.
Our daily meetings are roughly what you describe, albeit without the accountability part. So we basically describe what we did yesterday and what our plan is for the day. It is not so much focused on deliverables as it is focusing on what our activity is. So this might be the key problem, there isnt a sense of accountability. Thanks for the advice, I might have a think about this and see we can slightly restructure them. I haven't ruled out the idea of us publishing our activitiy somewhere each day, perhaps where we're adding the hours. But this is the part where I cant seem to find the line between when I am the control freak kinda dickheady boss who doesn't trust anyone, or just implementing something that is perfectly reasonable.
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Tbh it’s ridiculous to think your staff are going to work as hard as you (the owner). You also either trust people and let them wfh or not. The live sessions discord idea is definitely straying into crazy controlling boss territory.
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I honestly don't expect them to work as hard as me, and that's why I wanted to emphasise the context of how I work personally and why I have loved wfh. I should have clarified that I really don't expect the same output from others.
But then what's a reasonable % to expect, 50% of my output? 20%? Cause it feels like when they're at home it can be even lower than that.
Thanks for the pointer on the discord thing, that's kinda what I needed to hear to be honest.
I am not sure about the either trust them and let them wfh or not part. It kinda assumes the problem can't be solved at all if I'm finding it challenging that they are at home.
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Can ye not put estimates against tasks in yere planning sessions agreed by all of the team?
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Do yiz have phones? If you're waiting for stuff, give him a ring and tell him you're waiting for stuff and ask him when you can get the stuff.
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Start implementing the accountability piece as the first step and see how that goes. Tbh things like discord, Google chat etc is just an avoidance strategy to avoid having to directly deal with the accountability part and discussing why the work isn't being done. If you go down the road of micro-managing and over controlling resentment will just build up and the working relationship won't be salvageable.
You need to focus on deliverables as well. Otherwise, what's the point and how can you measure productivity otherwise? You need to start planning his work load in advance, ideally over yearly, monthly and then weekly time frames. If that's too much, start doing it weekly and daily. Working out what he should be capable of doing by calculating what you can do in a week and then cut that down by 40% and see how that goes.
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The WFH element is largely irrelevant here. You need to start putting together deliverables based on realistic timeframes. That's a significant part of what being a manager is. If an employee is repeatedly not delivering, that's when you need to have a discussion with them.
So in summary, Im a really good worker, but perhaps not a great manager. Im neither trained in management/HR nor enjoy it or even have much of an interest in it.
You need someone in the business who can do these things. If you're not willing or able, you need to find someone else who can. No business is going to do well without anyone in that role
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Do your staff not have targets and deliverables with due dates because this make it sound like you don't know what they're doing (which would be a reflection of your ability to manage people)?
But then what's a reasonable % to expect, 50% of my output? 20%? Cause it feels like when they're at home it can be even lower than that
Plus putting them down as a percentage of what you can do is just a horrible way to manage their performance.
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I work in software too, but for a massive company. Practically all my tasks are trackked including an estimate of duration/time to completion.
I work 95% remotely and love it too. It does give you lots more freedom, but some people have difficulty utilising that freedom.
On a any given day when I have no meetings, I could in theory go shopping, or to the cinema in the afternoon and no-one would miss me. I don't. I carry on with my work as normal. (Our project is already way behind schedule) Once a person tries it once and isn't missed, they might try it more often.
We use MS Teams(which I hate by the way), but from a status tracking point of view, it is quite good, in that, if you dont move the mouse or execute a key press in a couple of minutes, it shows you as away. So if one were to go to the cinema for the afternoon, they would show as being away for 3 hours. It's years since I last used Google Chat, but from what I remember, you can set your status as available and then walk away from your PC.
Obviously, you as director knows exactly what the work you want your employee to do looks like. So it is going to take him longer to do it, as he doesn't have the same picture as you. When I'm having a good day and properly "in the zone", I can get more done in an hour, then I get done in four hours on off days.
I am naturally suspicious though, so you sending a message at 2pm to your employee who shows up as online, but you don't get a reply until 4pm looks suspicious to me.
When I started in this company, my boss said to me "Im not a micro manager, all I care about is the work getting done", which almost gives me the greenlight to go to the cinema during work hours, so long as I log in in the evening and do what is needed of me. For one of my tasks, I have an SLA of 3 days, but I aim to complete the tasks for it within a couple of hours. I could probably tell her I'm off to see Openheimer and her first question would be, "are you on top of all your tasks?" if I said yes she would probably be cool with it, but with my current project, I'd never be able to say yes as, as I said, it is massively behind schedule (nothing to do with me though!). When I finish work on a friday evening, it's not because I have completed all my tasks, its because I've run out of time. By the way, this past Friday, I finished at 10pm.
You do the daily meeting, thats fine. In future, if you are expecting a specific task from one of them, why not schedule a meeting with them to go through the ask, explain exactly what you want on the call and ask for an ETA. If the employee is showing as online, but the meeting invite is not accepted or attended then you will know you have a problem.
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Join Date:Posts: 20795
As has been said, you need to start estimating effort and track adherence to the estimate. However quality is also important here.
jira Is fine for this, track their commits in git or whatever repo tool you use to see how often code is going in.
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Are the morning meetings jousts stand ups? Here's what I done yesterday, today's work, blockers etc? If you're using Jira or Gitlab you can make use of kanban tracking, there's plenty of solutions online to suit your needs.
You might need to take a step back and either allow someone to be the lead on stuff or hire one. Focus more on management and less than development. If this is something you've come up with yourself then you have the vision of where you want it to go. It can be hard to both develop and convey this to a team at the same time.
Granted communication could be better, maybe. You are holding yourself to a very high standard and it could be unfair to hold others to that.
Remember, treat failure and problems as opportunities to develop the skills on your team. In my experience it's almost always a lack of knowledge or confidence that leads to deadlines, hard or soft, being missed. I think it's probably been twice out of malice or laziness.
Break tasks down into workable chunks and dont be afraid to push delivery times. Ensure you have a fully functioning CI/CD process where you can bake in testing, security checks etc and containerise your work if possible. Aim for a minimum viable product and improve on that and definitely avoid feature creep in your early builds. Get it out the door and put them into your planned improvements.
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This is interesting, and believe it or not I am more like your manager than I am probably describing here. In a nutshell I really dont give a crap so long as the stuff is getting delivered. Its when its not and my own workload is growing despite having people who are supposed to help, thats when I think I start to (at least internally for now) begin to take on the neurotic micro manager role and start thinking about tracking and wfh problems etc. Interestingly, having read everyones feedback here I think I have changed my tune a bit. I am less interested in figuring out ways to track them and instead I will need to get time estimates off them. At least there can be a reason for a conversation they are consistently way off.
Thanks for this, I am definitely going to go down this route, either I will do it or will have to find someone.
Yea, I think I will either need to replace myself fully (as a developer) and take on that role of management in a more meaningful way, or find someone who'll do that.
Thanks everyone for your input. To be fair, what you're saying is supposed to be fairly obvious in any company of our nature, but still I needed to be reminded about the idea of estimates and accountability. My own frustration might subside then. I 100% do not want to to become the out of control micromanager. Not only because it will make our place a crap place to work, but I actually despise being like that personally. There is no joy from it.
We did start this before and it fizzled out, again this is due to me being too busy and not staying on top of it. But that isnt an excuse, something has to give somewhere, either I do it or get a manager.
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The WFH element really is irrelevant.
I remember at a former company I worked, I was doing security testing for a client however, the firewall was blocking my outbound requests, so I asked could I work from home for the duration. My manager: "No.. I like to keep an eye on people".
Me: To myself: OK, keep an eye on this...
For the next couple of days I used a console based web browser and spent the day working from the office, reading and posting on boards. As far as my eagle-eyed manager could see I was working feverishly in a Linux shell, but actually, I was not doing a tap of work. Then I went home and did the testing from home.
My point is, if some one decides they dont want to work on a particular day, they won't whether they are in the office or at home. Thats where project tracking and reporting comes in. In the massive technology company I work in we are about to move over to Jira. It might fit your needs. They have a free option up to I think 10 users and there are lots of other free and open source software devlopement tracking tools out there too.
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It's interesting that you visibly noticed the reduction in output of once you went to WfH.
Seems to me like the WfH bit isn't as irrelevant as other have said.
Not being able to reach people is an absolute pain as a manager.
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A big part of my management style is encouraging people to have ownership of their work. I generally try to avoid communicating by messaging and have daily short meetings and one or two weekly meetings with a clearly defined agenda and rotating minute takers. Our tasks are clearly outlined and if people dont make the deadlines we explore why.
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Did you draw up any sort of contract with your employees when you began WFH? If not, now's as good a time as any to draw one up. The bottom line here is that you are the manager of this company and you have every right to know what exactly is going on. When we were given hybrid working contracts after returning to the office after Covid, one of the provisions was to be contactable by phone during work hours. You're seeing for yourself what a hands-off approach is doing. You're so afraid to be seen as a micro-manager you've become cowed. You need to be ringing your employees at unexpected times just to catch up with what they're at, or just for a "chat". If they think you're going to start ringing them at random times - which is perfectly normal behaviour - it might pull them into line. You also need to start setting targets and including them in the input into those. It looks like you're doing your own thing, you're letting them do their bit and there's little joined up thinking or ownership of the work.
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I’d spot that in an instant, no flies on me I can tell you. Very first time I saw Boards.ie was such an instance. “tell me, how does this relate to what we are doing?”
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Multi-site working (whether it's WFH or multiple offices) is a lot more work for managers. You absolutely need
measurable targets
processes for actually doing the measuring
processed for follow-up adjustment if targets are at risk of being missed
processes for regularly checking employee wellbeing
In co-located working, you'd still be doing these things but usually get away with more informal, lower time-cost processes. There's a reason the Agile manifesto prefers co-location to multi-location.
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In my experience some people always get back to you quickly, even if its, "talk later busy etc", and some never do. Doesn't matter how busy they are, how senior or important, where they are located, in the Office or WFH. Its simply personality type, or habit. We've all had that person who never replies to phone, email nothing, you have to walk to their desk and stand over them. Bad communicators become a roadblock for all sorts of workflows. WFH or in the office its the same thing. In the office you probably didn't notice how much time chasing them took.
I think the mindset of a contractor is where you need to be. What bang for buck you get for the time spent. But the downside is people will avoid jobs that with a slow turn around. Because it makes them look bad.
The other thing is managing takes time. If you are doing a developer job and a manager job one is at the expense of the other. One guy I know ran into this and realized he was estimating everything as if he had one more full time developer than he actually had. Though maybe you're compensating by burning the candle at both ends.
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I agree here that this is a management issue (not WFH) to an extent, but the reality is for low-accountability/motivation/performance employees WFH gives a lot more temptation to slack off then working in an office where you are stuck there for the day so doing a couple of hours will probably help the time pass, plus you are in an environment surrounded by mostly others working. This sets the tone, more than WFH.
Op is obviously a high performer, and the mistake you make is that most others are like you
High performers have no issue wherever they work - they will be driven to achieve and do the job but the reality is 80% are not high performers and are just humans who will give in to temptation if there is a big payoff (more free time) and zero consequence -why wouldn't you? Especially when people are way less focused on career post-pandemic
Low performers will call any kind of management "micro management" to get themselves off the accountability hook. Don't fall for the emotional manipulation and guilt-tripping. Setting clear targets and expecting them to be met (and when they are not, checking in on it) is not micro-management, it's the job. If targets are being met and delivered and you are constantly checking in that's different. People want the freedom without the accountability - hell, we all would - but that's not what a job is.
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OP do not feel you have to apologise for keeping an eye on your employees, some people will absolutely take the p1ss if they can get away with it. You bet some will have set their own little timetable to suit themselves. Are they out doing their own thing? Are they doing other stuff at home? Are they spending time on social media when they are supposed to be working? Are they even doing a second job? I’ve seen somebody surreptitiously run a part-time business where I worked!
That’s why I’d do exactly as a poster above suggested and I wouldn’t feel guilty about it; check in on them at odd times. It’s your business and you need your time off too after putting in the hard yards during the day.
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I think if you are constantly have to defend against micro management or is the first thing you jump to, that's something else entirely. No smoke without fire. For me it's got nothing to do with the OPs query.
You set a work item and a schedule for it. It either gets done on time or it doesn't. If it not getting done you investigate why.
Rather than tracking time. I'd be tracking output. Someone might be in an office all day put produce nothing. Someone else might seem to never be around, but always has their work done.
For me with a small team I'd be getting together with them and thrashing out your problems with the current arrangements. If it's not working keep adapting until it does.
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This. Like I said before, people rarely underperform out of malice or laziness. In my experience they've needed help and due to things like imposter syndrome or concern about how they'll look they don't raise a concern or lack of knowledge. I've gotten my team past this and encourage them to speak up when they have knowledge blocks or other reasons for being unable to deliver something. If I find myself having to contact someone because they're underperforming the first question I ask is "What do you need? What can I do to help?" I don't micromanage or lean on them. The last 2 years we've shipped more services and updates than any time previously. Everyone owns their work, everyone wants to succeed.
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It not explicitly stated but it was ok before wfh. But perhaps its something to do with wfh.
But maybe it not wfh, perhaps its something what was an issue before, and not realised then. But wfh has highlighted it.
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@OP- haven’t read the whole thread but I think I’m getting the gist of it.
A few things:
Activity is different than outputs - you’ve got to start talking in terms of outputs and deliverables - this was a big thing for certain large corporates at the beginning of lockdown- they were measuring activity which does feic all use- only the outputs and deliverables will help you plan effectively.
Secondly you’ve got to have office time - even if it’s once every two weeks- outputs on the day will be lower but it will help you plan the work and check to ensure everyone’s on board- it’s also easier to deliver key messages you need the people to take on board/ plan that day carefully- have a structure
Finally, consider a work charter - designed by your team for your team- have everyone participate- this is essentially the agreed ways of working -you can include things like response time when pinged online etc -
Maybe your team is slacking or maybe they’re diligent -but you’ve got to get to the bottom of it - is it skills they’re lacking? Do they need more management?
Youll need to determine if their output would be better if working beside you in an office than working from home- it’s your business - you call the shots here.
I appreciate you may wish to keep them for whatever reason- but if you and your business are suffering you need to take stock .
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You need to get people to commit to timelines and hold them accountable if they do not.
This is what we do.
I delegate tasks in a weekly meeting. I ask people how long they think a task will take. We may negotiate if I think they're over or underestimating the time.
We catch up every few days to see how tasks are progressing and track timelines. People need to have a good reason why they haven't hit a target they themselves have set. It keeps people honest.
Sometimes I get the excuse "well X wasn't ready", which is fine, but they should automatically move to the next item on the queue. Then I'll ask whoever was responsible for X and get to the bottom of things.
If I need something from someone, then we will agree when it's due. If I need it by 4pm, I'll ask for it for 2pm.
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Its very hard to make decisions when you've not quantified the issues backed up with some metrics. But to have metrics you have to have a methodology that collects them, and collates them.
No one in software development want to do the admin work. I was hearing all the time from one team how busy they were. I did the metrics on it, they aren't that busy, What is sucking there resources is one work item that is being generated by a poor business process. It compounded by a approval process that has too many chefs and takes forever. But they can't see it because they don't spend any time analyzing their workload.
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You are the problem here 100%, and i say that having a lot of experience in wfh and hybrid the last 5 years.
Your red flag statement that really stuck out was saying if you want to wfh you should be doing more just to prove you can wfh...what a ridiculous and illogical statement. The whole purpose of wfh is to allow people to do their duties in a reasonable 8 or so hours day then log off and live their life without having to be on call 24/7. It sounds to me like you are totally projecting your workplace standards and long hours onto everyone else and you cannot do that.
Look. Some people will take the p!ss wfh and in office. Some are excellent in both situations. It varies. If you think dragging people back to the office to improve response time will work, you might be surprised. People will resent you taking that perk off them and will drag their feet even more so if i were you i would suggest not expecting other people to be the same as you and do a 15 min morning catch up to set expectations and response times and take it from there.
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