Dynamic Electricity Price Tariffs Consultation Paper

con747

This is happening!

https://www.cru.ie/publications/27945/

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058336271/dynamic-electricity-price-tariffs-consultation-paper

Knowing the CRU they`ll make a balls of it like everything else they touch.

ColemanY2K

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058336271/dynamic-electricity-price-tariffs-consultation-paper

nice one. how long does it normally take to go from this point to us as consumers potentially benefiting from a proposal going into practice?

randombar

What do people think here?

Pros:

Opportunity to buy electricity at cheaper rates.

Opportunity to sell electricity at more expensive rates.

Cons:

Potentially not getting much for electricity on a bright sunny day in the middle of summer.

ELM327

How quickly can I opt as far as possible out of this?

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770731#Comment_121770731

Don't opt-in? 😆

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770691#Comment_121770691

3 to 5 years, I'd guess.

Jonathan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058336271/dynamic-electricity-price-tariffs-consultation-paper

This is really interesting. I wasn't aware of relative market shares (other that EI being the largest because people have never switched).

Wonder how many Renewable Energies Boardsies comprise Pinergy's 26k customers? 😂

10-10-20

Look at this...: CRU giving wiggle-room on how suppliers communicate the hourly DAM pricing one day in advance:

• Question: 3.8.1 Do you agree with the CRU proposals that, at a minimum, suppliers must provide the price daily on a page on their website?
• Question: 3.8.2 Should there be a mandatory requirement on suppliers to provide pricing information in some additional format or by other means?

That's potentially a lock-out for automation and maximising the use of the dynamic tariff. My response to this would be that the DAM pricing must be mandated to be made available within a defined period after the midday close of SEMOpx auction for D-1. Plus they must be mandated to be published in a open data interchange format such as JSON and not via some supplier app or closed interface.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770715#Comment_121770715

Con: possibly very expensive rates in the winter.

Re summer day, capture all during day and discharge at night.

Would need strong automation behind it.

Also should know 1 day in advance.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770869#Comment_121770869

Oh yeah it needs to be open, JSON preferable. Not behind API keys, public to all.

10-10-20

As for "Question: 3.11.1 Do you agree with the CRU’s position that pricing alerts should be a mandatory requirement for suppliers who offer Standard Dynamic Price Contracts?". The example given within paragraph above suggests notifications around daily pricing humps, but as I see it at the end of the day if you're signing up to dynamic pricing then surely you should know about daily pricing humps - it's kind of a given; but there also has to be consumer protection built-into the system.

I'd have two-tiered notifications: daily pricing humps for the general up's and down's (optional alerting); then an second notification for explosive or excessive price spikes (mandatory alerting).

oaklands

A few notes:

• Nothing stopping suppliers doing it today. (Obviously they don't want to do it or don't see an upside for them)
• Only suppliers with more than 200k connections (Top 4 bolded in table above) will be forced to implement. Smaller players will not be compelled.
• Those suppliers will be compelled to have at least 1 such Dynamic Tariff offering for customers.
• "By the end of 2023, over 1.5 million electricity customers had smart meters and more than 290,000 were availing of smart services."

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770993#Comment_121770993

I wonder what they mean by availing of smart services.

I am on day night, so no feedback by my supplier.

But I definitely do avail of smart services.

I pull my data from ESBN, I get a measured export and my meter is read remotely.

Interesting that they will force the suppliers to do it. Ill look at the doc later.. which of the big names don't have to do it?

EI, BG, SSE, Energia, Flogas. (My guess is flogas)

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121771139#Comment_121771139

I'll guess it's smart plans.

Dum_Dum_2

More demand management. Creeping in everywhere.

Engineers used to so proud of their abilities to service the fluctuations in demand.

What a regressive step to just give up and reshape behaviour instead.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121771903#Comment_121771903

This statement from page 12 lays it out bare, almost too bare:

1.2.5 Fairer allocation of costs

The aforementioned ASSET study by the European Commission found that dynamic pricing leads to fairer allocation of costs among electricity consumers, benefitting low-income households. The following is an excerpt from the European Commission study:

“Consumers with peaky load profiles and a high electricity demand during peak hours impose higher power system costs than consumers with flat load profiles. A flat rate represents a de facto cross-subsidy from households with flat profiles to households with peaky profiles. Moreover, particularly low-income households are characterised by flat power demands. Consequently, the most low-income consumers are burdened disproportionally. Dynamic pricing would therefore not only lead to electricity bills savings for most consumers, but also support low-income households and allocate costs to where and when they are incurred.”

micks_address

if this is headed like they uk - the suppliers i think publish the next day half hourly pricing for import/export prices.. so you can build automation around it to dump batteries to maximise return.. ive seen prices over a pound a kwh paid for export.. and pricing can also go negative for import..

SD_DRACULA

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121771979#Comment_121771979

Negative import you say....

Me running to Nkon and ordering 150kwh worth of batteries 🤣

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121772053#Comment_121772053

Mind that bubble-mix while you run - home-made stuff isn't as good as the commercial stuff!

In regards negative imports... I dunno if we'll see much of that given that we're an island. As the paper says...:

At the other end of the scale, negative wholesale electricity prices occur occasionally in the day ahead markets in power markets across Northern Europe, although rarely in Ireland to-date. These occur when market prices clear at a market price below zero, meaning generators are willing to pay for their power to be consumed. Some large thermal generators operate most economically if they can avoid the inefficient costs of powering down and up. It can be cheaper for them to keep the thermal plant operating and sell their electricity at a loss than it is to power down only to subsequently incur the cost of powering up sometime later. This creates a situation where the market price can be less than zero.

I'd guess that since dropping coal's input to the grid and given that a gas generator's response rate is pretty snappy, that it's especially unlikely that we'd see negative imports as the rates are published a day in advance. Plenty of time to back-off other generators and avoid having to pay-out cash to punters. But they will have to work something in with short-notice events such as what they were doing with the ESB's Peak Events notification system. I'm not sure that's fully covered for in that document.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121771903#Comment_121771903

What? ESB have been looking at demand management since they started producing electricity

Being able to switch on a bunch of open cycle gas turbines without any regard for cost or environmental damage isn't something to be proud of

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121771975#Comment_121771975

I find the statement that lower income households have flatter demand curves to be bizarre, can't see how that makes sense

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121772423#Comment_121772423

Seen articles that there was some people who didnt get the gov energy credits this time around because they used too little electric!

But Id be on of your opinion, Dynamic pricing really is only a benefit of the likes of us who can leverage it and have the hardware to avoid using at the peak times.

johndoe11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121772181#Comment_121772181

Coal is still being used in moneypoint, but will switch to HFO in a couple of years. Think there is a planning application in now. Not much less polluting, but may be quicker to run up.

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121772423#Comment_121772423

Seems to be a very strange statement indeed, maybe poor people have gas cookers and wash in a tin bath by the fire with the water heated by same fire. I wouldn't regard myself as particularly wealthy and my usage graph certainly wouldn't be flat.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121772541#Comment_121772541

I should have phrased that as "...since lowering coal's input...".

SD_DRACULA

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121772181#Comment_121772181

That's true I suppose but what about when we get to the point when there's so much PV being exported from people's roofs and nothing to do it during the day? Surely they will want people to use that as I'm not sure how they could control it?

But I suppose most of our batteries will be full then anyway and unless the EVs are home and empty where will it go...

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121772858#Comment_121772858

That's the thing, and maybe I/we haven't read the document enough... but they don't appear to plan for two-way transactional consumers - not just those who consume from the grid, but those who can feed back into it. You'd expect to see two published rates in that case: The "We Buy" and the "We Sell" rates, but I just checked again and there is no mention of a microgeneration export agreement under this plan!

The nearest I see to that is this sentence:

If a supplier or a third party made this information easily available to customers on dynamic tariffs, they could better manage their energy usage a few days ahead. This would be particularly useful for customers that have items such as electric vehicles, batteries, microgeneration or heat pumps. This information could be used by customers themselves or possibly, by energy management systems.

So do they want us to do all of the importing & buying and none of the selling/exporting? If that's the case then I'd consider it a serious oversight.

jkforde

ok, so how will this work for the majority without automation (personal setup or 3rd party)... will there be service (the inevitable apps I guess) where we'll be able to see the price graph for the next day and programme appliances accordingly (EV charging, washing, DHW)?

(really must get the finger out re. home automation!)

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121773072#Comment_121773072

Without automation it's as simple as shifting the load by not cooking the dinner between 17:00 and 19:00 (or whenever the unit rate is peaking). ie, it's of little use (IMHO).

allinthehead

Duplicate😄

Padraig Mor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121771975#Comment_121771975

So, penalise the working families who have little choice but to use power at peak hours as they're out working all day, while Damo McScrounger sitting at home with his feet up benefits from the cheap rates?

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121778331#Comment_121778331

No, this is optional, not mandated.

You're probably more likely to install an inverter and battery to mitigate the rates, in fairness. Therefore you spend on the lesser priced units and save on buying the higher.