The engima that is Cork hurling

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757019#Comment_121757019

It's not that much of an enigma. Cork produce a lot of professional players in other sports. And there's a clear avenue to getting a paycheck for athletic prowess since the advent of rugby in particular. It's still hard to make it. But a top talent will. Also, if you opt for football there's a chance you can get to the AFL. Many top talents in Cork, Tipp, Limerick and Galway are hedging their bets, playing both, until professionalism doesn't work out. And they're 100 right to do that. There's also Cork city fc. Cork is a proper sporting county - senior rugby clubs, senior soccer clubs, proper athletics, and so on. It's very hard to make it as a player in the premiership and first division - top leagues, serious money - Cork have a lot of lads in those leagues for the size of the place.

For instance, take a player like Mason Cawley. Young guy. Super hurler. Doesn't play that much hurling - plays when he can. Is with Munster development squads. Rocks up to the harty final scores three points - looks dangerous every time he gets the ball. But his first priority will be making it as a rugby player. Jake Morris grew up as a neighbor to Ben Healy and Barry Coffey - one goes to Munster (now at Edinburgh and Scotland) and the other goes to Celtic and Cork City. Top talent will find a way. A lot of Cork's really special underage talent goes to rugby or afl.

Of the players you list, with their talents, if they were offered a chance to go in with a Munster development squad at a young age back then, they would have taken it. Absolutely no guarantees of making it. But, now, more than ever, if you're gifted there are routes in place to take to make it as a professional. Look at the career Meyler's son made for himself - probably a multi-millionaire out of it.

Straight Talker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757019#Comment_121757019

I think Cork will always produce hurlers with the skill and pace, the dainty stickmen i suppose you could call them. We have struggled badly post 2006 with the more nitty gritty stuff alright. The way Cork club championship games are refereed doesn't exactly help things either. The referees in Cork are very whistle happy as such! The u20 team that won three of the last four all Irelands in that grade, seems to have lads with that bit of skill and toughness in them. They seem to have that bit of Corkness is another word for it i suppose!

Cork did almost snatch a smash and grab all Ireland in 2013, we could have won the all Ireland in 2018 if we got past Limerick in that years semi final. That's a defeat that Cork hurling as of yet still hasn't recovered from imo. You talk about clamping down on throwing the ball, but there's other stuff that referees have to clamp down on as well. The holding and interfering of hurleys, hands and arms etc when a player is going for the ball.

Grats

I guess it's no surprise that Donal Og Cusack's favourite hobbyhorse a few years ago, the spare hand, rarely gets a mention these days?

Repo101

Cork's problem is not talent, it's a mix of poor shot and pass selection along with failing to use space by varying their playing style enough. Some of their best chances against Clare came from simple long ball into a forward in space.

I was talking to a Limerick fan on Sunday evening who was trying to convince me Cork have been trying to copy Limerick by passing out from the back the past few years but Cork have always played that way.

I also think it doesn't help that some of their forwards just disappear in certain games for whatever reason but Cork have too much talent coming through at underage not to win an All-Ireland in the next decade, if they appoint the right manager.

Asdfgh2020

the only cork enigma is that it’s now almost 20 years since their last hurling all Ireland, their longest ‘famine’ ever…..hard to believe that anyone under 24/25 years of age will has any memory of an all Ireland victory

Straight Talker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121764097#Comment_121764097

It's bit of a barren period alright. Still though at least we aren't Waterford!😁🤣

rebs23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058334969/the-engima-that-is-cork-hurling

You should try and be a Cork fan watching it at times! Very frustrating our lack of directness.

bullpost

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768618#Comment_121768618

Yet 😀

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121772236#Comment_121772236

I don’t think many wateford fans expect ever expect much and are well aware of the almost 70 year drought but can’t imagine that there would be many in cork or even countrywide that in 2005 would have expected almost 20 years with out a senior all Ireland….?

PeggyShippen

I think Cork underperform really in a sporting sense. 600,000 people in a county predominantly GAA and the main GAA sport is Hurling. More clubs than anywhere else and no All Ireland in 20 years. The footballers look a decade away from success. Less AIL rugby clubs than Limerick aswell. Cork is definately producing more professional rugby players than it used to but not out of proportion to its size. Obviously my neighbours in Limerick are sports mad and thats widely known but I wouldnt associate Cork with boxing above their weight category in sports. I think there's a reasonable stream of soccer players coming through but again look at Cork City...an omni shambles.

Over the next 5 years Cork will win a senior Hurling All Ireland and remain competing for silverware for good..no more blips as the processes and structure is there now to deliver but this 'first senior All Ireland ' will be very hard to win. The pressure is huge and building. The hunger is massive..Cork people do well to hide it but its just under the surface.

Straight Talker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121772409#Comment_121772409

That last strike had a lot to do with it. I don't want to rake over old coals here, but it left a very poisonous aftertaste that took a good decade or so to get over.

Straight Talker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121772236#Comment_121772236

At least Cork still have past all Irelands to watch on youtube etc.😀 It's not ideal but sure it's better than nothing at all!

Straight Talker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121772757#Comment_121772757

Less than 10 years ago Cork City were league champions, and they then suffered two relegations from the top flight in that time! That's some collapse all the same. With Cork hurling it's been a more slow and gradual decent into mediocrity.

There always has been pressure and expectancy with Cork hurling, and obviously it's at breaking point now. You have a sportsmad county that's been starved of recent success.

Wexford are another county with a strong tradition in hurling yet they've only won one all Ireland since 1968, and that all Ireland is almost 30 years old now.

Limerick went almost 50 years without winning an all Ireland. I think sport is cyclical periods of success and failure come in cycles. No county is entitled to an all Ireland, it has to be earned and since 2005 we quite simply haven't done enough to earn one at senior level.

As i keep saying that stadium debt is huge problem. As Donal Og said it's like having a nice and fancy front room with no dinner on the table!

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058334969/the-engima-that-is-cork-hurling

What Cork do should be applauded. All other counties followed KKs dogmatic and tenacious approach, at the expense of the technical side of the game, all except Cork. Cork are the only county left playing actual hurling, the sport we grew up with, as opposed to the Limerick and KK philosophy of hack at the heels all day, make your players bigger and more physical.

To change their style would be beneath the ethos of Cork hurling, they wouldn't lower themselves to play this more primitive version of the game, win or lose. And Cork will eventually navigate the other approach, and are getting closer all the time. When Cork finally suss out Limerick, the others are in big trouble.

Most counties have now spent two decades trying to play a certain way, and when Cork overcome it, will have no answer, unless they radically change their way of playing.

People think I'm joking or whatever, but I'm deadly serious, all aspiring hurlers should be sat down at a young age and watch Cork play. That it's not all about winning, but the skills and art of the game.

Cork have always been unique in a sense, always took great pride in how they approached the game, very seperate to the rest of the hurling counties and I think it's to be commended. It will be a dark day for hurling if Cork change their game like everyone else has done.

Cork winning the All Ireland would be huge imo, in how everyone approaches the game. Others having to change their philosophy to beat them, while youngsters get a lesson in how the game should be played.

Cork are the only team saving the game of hurling, keeping alive the philosophy of how the game is supposed to be played. And the most successful county for much of hurlings history, and you could argue still are. The Cork approach to hurling is one best things the GAA has going for it.

Until their recent fall for much of the last two decades, they were always a level above even Tipp and KK, across the board, at most age groups. KK and Tipp, even at their best, can't hold a candle to the technical brilliance of how most Cork players play.

An average Cork team winning Munster circa 2017 possibly, put in a second half performance against Clare that was possibly the most perfect half of hurling ever played, in terms of skill and technique. Put even the great 4 in a row KK team to shame.

Cork, the true purveyors of our historical game!

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121818015#Comment_121818015

Yes the only true ‘master stick men’ for sure, add to this their ingenious ‘running game’, there is definitely something ‘in the water’ Lee side. Player longevity is another unique trait, eg Horgan as good as he ever has been as he approaches late 30’s. They Continue to produce excellent coaches/managers as well

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757019#Comment_121757019

If Cork's "movement and pace are too much for other sides to handle" and throwing is permitted (which you say suits them" why don't they win more? I think other teams are coping better than you suggest.

lukin

As a Cork supporter I think it isn't so much the running/hand-passing game that is the cause of Cork's lack of success, it's the lack of work-rate when they don't have the ball that is their problem. Since Cork last won the AI in 2005 the most successful teams have been those that put a big emphasis on dispossessing the opposition in their own half (forwards tackling defenders who are coming out with the ball). Kilkenny under Cody were excellent at this and Limerick under Kiely have taken it to a higher level. The number of points/goals they score from turnovers in the opposition half is very high.

Cork have never bought into this. They do it a bit but not enough. Pat Horgan for example is a great player but he doesn't tackle back.

It seems to be a thing of "We're Cork we are above all that nonsense, we will just out-hurl the opposition". They are obviously not working on it in training (not enough anyway I would say) so how can they expect to do it in a competitive match? As long as that attitude persists Cork will not win an All-Ireland.

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121818476#Comment_121818476

Corks lack of success is not due to their ability or style, but the approach the others have taken, in regards physicality and their dogmatic approach. In the mean time, Cork had internal problems which sent them back years.

You can see by the success of their underage teams, and even their senior teams, the trajectory would suggest they are getting closer all the time to Limerick and the rest of the anti-hurlers. As the talent continues to come through, they'll improve.

Their style or game isn't the issue, it's a case of putting the pieces together from their own fall out years ago, sending them back years, and sussing out how to work around the style the others have adopted. They are very close to toppling the Limerick approach imo.

I've said it for a few years, they are getting closer all the time, and have serious talent about to emerge onto the seniors. They're on the brink to be honest, when they get the better of Limerick, it's game over for Limerick and the rest, they'll have sussed out how to completely play around the others.

When that happens, they'll outhurl the rest from a technical standpoint, completely taking out any physical advantage the others hold. Casual 40 yard sideways passes, playing around a soon to be dated approach.

They've shown flashes of it, and are getting closer all the time. This is what people don't want to accept. All the coming talent is coming from Cork at the minute tbh!

For every champion is a challenger, for every style there is a counter. Cork are the anti-thesis to what Limerick and KK do. The huge battle coming down the road will be a few years of an established Limerick trying to hold off a buoyant and coming Cork, with Cork finally prevailing after many great battles.

Two opposing styles is what makes this coming rivalry intriguing. Like Barca v Chelsea under Mourinho, pure hurling versus physical and negative hurling. Cork will finally overturn them, and it will validate their style and ethos, people will see!

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121818109#Comment_121818109

As someone from a weaker hurling county, something that I always remembered was our coach, telling us as kids, if we want to improve, watch and study how the Cork players play, no one else. That that's what hurling is.

Looking back as a kid I even remember comments in passing from others when Cork played, comments like Cork have "wristy hurlers" and play in a "special way". So I've always wanted them to succeed in that sense, as the team who takes pride in playing hurling the right way.

And I know for a fact, since KK and Limericks success, Cork take even greater pride in how they play, doubling down on their belief in how the game should be played and to overcome Limerick playing on their terms.

After they lost the All-Ireland final they were told as much from management, from what people have said who know some of the players apparently. Basically, we'll never change our style and go again.

Something unique and special about their hurling culture for sure, it really bothers KK and Tipp, they know deep down they don't produce that sort of talent, or have that culture!

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822132#Comment_121822132

Do you have any views on ‘Another cork enigma’ the decline of club hurling standard in the county. No munster or all Ireland since 2009…..recent county champions regularly getting 10 pt plus beatings in club competition….?

BarryNumber1

Have a little faith, they've been lively enough in patches. just maintain that over the bones of 70 minutes and they could go a bit further in the championship. Of course every other county will up their game for the championship as well.

There's no enigma, it's been one or two AI wins here and there since the 80s, the end of the 70s saw the end of dominating any period. 82 and 83 losses hurt more than any strike.

Grats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121818476#Comment_121818476

Couldn't agree more. And although Cork do seem to have up and coming talent, they'll do no better at senior level until the lack of work rate is addressed. A poster is adamant that Cork will be the team to knock Limerick off their perch - they'll need massive work rate and Limerick will need to be finally regressing. Can't see either happening soon. Meanwhile, hard working teams are more likely to replace Limerick at the top - which won't be for a while yet!

By the way, I'm not suggesting that teams rely on hard work alone and that Cork are the only skillful team around.

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822132#Comment_121822132

If you examine their skills in depth you will also note a very unique roll and jab lift technique and same for sidelines, striking……and as well as their excellence with the ‘stick/wrists’ their positional sense and overall intelligence on the field such as finding the spare man, running into space for the strategic pass etc are also unique/joys to behold.

Straight Talker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822422#Comment_121822422

Cork went on to win all Irelands in 1984, 1986 and 1990 after those two all Ireland defeats in 1982 and 1983, so i find that to be a strange argument. The mid noughties Cork team did manage to get to four all Ireland finals in a row. Not even the great three in a row team of 1976, 1978 and 1978 could manage that. The mid noughties Cork team had to play more matches, to get into those all Ireland finals as well with the backdoor structure.

Meursault

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822324#Comment_121822324

Its true that Cork club hurling sides are not competing at a provincial or national level. I wonder is that something to do with the fact that the intercounty players come from a much wider spread of clubs, and at different grades (Senior, Intermediate, and Junior) than other counties?

There are some peculiarities about how club hurling operates in Cork versus the rest of the country.

In between Senior Level and Intermediate level, there is a Senior A level. The winners of this championship are not permitted to represent the county at provincial level. As a result, the intermediate club is actually a lower level club, when compared with other counties, and the same goes for Junior.

There are quite a few of the current Cork panel (Mark Coleman, Shane Barrett, Luke Meade, Brian Roche, Rob Downey, Eoin Downey, Patrick Horgan) who will start for Cork, who would not be involved with provincial hurling in the last few years or 2024, due to the fact that they have played or will play at this Senior A level.

Look at the other starters for Cork hurling, and you will rarely see a club with more than one player starting for Cork on a regular basis.

So, the talent more spread out these days in club hurling.

I am not sure winter hurling suits the type of hurler that cork produces either, although I am reluctant to use that as excuse, as we have had successful club munster and all ireland winners before.

shocs07

Total nonsense. I'd also be worried for Cork that despite all this talent being produced their best forward, is more or less a grandfather in hurling terms

shocs07

Sorry, I replied to the wrong post. Replying to a post on the 27th

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121826535#Comment_121826535

The Cork team of the 2000s may had to play more matches but the backdoor facilitated their All-Ireland win of 2004. The 1976-78 Cork team had no such safety net.

The Cork 2003-06 team reached four All Ireland finals alright but had only one year when they didn't lose a game, losing three matches in four years. Under 1970s conditions they'd have won just one All Ireland and played only three. So the backdoor might have created more matches but that's not the same as saying it was a disadvantage.

hurlaway

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822132#Comment_121822132

Your deluded as usual if you think Corks "culture " bothers anyone in kk

BQQ

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121818015#Comment_121818015

Surely the finest team to ever grace a hurling pitch (and not a medal between them)

The enigma is that a lot of people seem to consider them skilled

watch the first half of that league game vs KK again and come back to me

the truth is their skill levels are far below Limerick and even behind the likes of Tipp, Clare and KK

Even if they abandoned their “philosophy “ and actually tried to hook and block like other teams, it wouldn’t work as Limerick would just out-hurl them

the drought is not ending anytime soon for the best team ever