Ulster says no - Provincial competition is no1 - Jim McGuinness

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121678371#Comment_121678371

Hope you enjoyed it, because all is designed for it never to happen again.

legendary.xix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121679413#Comment_121679413

Clare are more than likely going to beat Tipperary or Waterford to make a Munster final. Using league ranking for seeding, Clare would take on Tipperary or Waterford in the quarter-final with the winner taking on Cork. Teams of a similar league ranking would play in the early round, build up a bit of momentum and then take on a higher ranked county. The worse case scenario is that the likes of Clare and Limerick will enter the Tailteann Cup where they would stand a good chance of making the semi-finals in Croke Park at least, potentially building and upward trajectory for the following years.

It is often mentioned that Clare and Leitrim won provincial titles not long after All-Ireland B success. It doesn't harm counties to win at their level and build from there at a higher level.

1.Tyrone, Monaghan

2. Derry, Armagh

3. Donegal, Cavan, Fermanagh

4. Down, Antrim

If Ulster used league ranking in 2023, an example draw:

PRELIMINARY ROUND:

Down v Antrim

QUARTER-FINALS:

Tyrone v Down/Antrim

Monaghan v Donegal

Derry v Fermanagh

Armagh v Cavan

SEMI-FINALS:

Tyrone/Down/Antrim v Armagh/Cavan

Monaghan/Donegal v Derry/Fermanagh

dxhound2005

Ulster have a system to rotate the Preliminary Round. It is only since 2020, and was done to introduce fairness, instead of it being random. I fear that a seeding system could see Antrim being forced to play the Preliminary Round every year. Fermanagh might feature a lot as well.

"Changes are to be introduced to the Ulster Senior Football Championship from 2020. The Ulster GAA Competitions Control Committee have decided that from that year teams which play in the Preliminary Round will be exempt from playing in the province’s opening fixture for two years. The change will mean that just five counties will be included in the Preliminary Round draw for the 2022 Championship and the championships thereafter."

Ulster GAA Provincial Secretary Brian McAvoy explained the rationale for the change saying;

“For many years the draw for the Ulster Championship has been conducted on the basis that all nine counties entered the bowl at the outset and the first two teams drawn played in the Preliminary Round. There was a time when the draw worked on a two-year cycle and there were indeed occasions when a county had to play in the Preliminary Round for four consecutive years."

legendary.xix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121681330#Comment_121681330

If Down and Antrim are the 8th and 9th seeds after the league, what's the harm in them starting in the preliminary round? The league is a fair seeding.

K-9

I always thought Leinster could benefit from a preliminary group, like they did in hurling before the current format.

Start with 6 or 8 teams in 2 groups and the winners then go into the knock outs. You could do it in Munster, 3 or 4 teams, Connacht as well. Would be harder to implement in Ulster but its an idea.

Gives the weaker counties games, momentum and a chance to work on tactics.

legendary.xix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121684721#Comment_121684721

It is a fair shout. With the Tailteann now however, counties have plenty of league games and Tailteann games to build momentum.

Laois had a one off game against Dublin last year. They dusted themselves down and had a decent Tailteann run before Down ran riot.

While Meath won the Tailteann, Down and Antrim had good runs also.

K-9

They'd still have the Tailteann after, but the calendar is so tight it is probably a non runner anyway.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121684439#Comment_121684439

Fair or not, it is up to each Provincial Council to organise their own championships whatever way they want. There is no GAA structure to force any or all of them into seeding. A form of seeding already exists in Munster and Leinster, but based on performance in their provincial championships, not in the League.

"In Munster, Last year's finalists Kerry and Clare are automatically through to the semi-finals, where they will await the winners of two quarter-finals between Cork, Tipperary, Waterford and Limerick. Defending Leinster champions Dublin will be seeded alongside 2023 semi-finalists Louth, Kildare and Offaly".

Because Cork could not beat Clare in 2023 in Munster, they have to face the possibility of playing Kerry in the semi-final this year. And losing an automatic place in Sam. As only Kerry and Cork from Munster are operating in the top two divisions, your system would give Cork number 2 seeding, and ensure that they avoided Kerry until the final. Apparently there is some history in Munster of seeding designed to always make the final between Kerry and Cork, but it was not universally popular. More discussions like this on Boards.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/54180082#Comment_54180082?utm_source=community-search&utm_medium=organic-search&utm_term=seeding+munster+football+championship

windy shepard henderson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121686054#Comment_121686054

would you believe we were up in arms when they brought in the seedings back to the munster championship , alas its not the 90s any more , clare tipperary and limerick have all made munster finals in recent times , only tipperary making an impact , i dont want to upset cork people but it would seem only one county is out on its own at the moment in munster , and its the biggest conundrum in the provincial cycle given the one of the best teams in the country is given a free run every year

legendary.xix

Naming counties as seeded teams is wrong. Bringing in a fair seeding is fair on everyone. The league is a fair ranking from 1 to 32. Provincial councils are shooting themselves in the foot by not utilising the league ranking for seeding.

NJSC1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691996#Comment_121691996

Provincial councils definitely wouldn’t see it that way - they would consider your proposal to be shooting themselves in the foot. There’s more “romance” in a set up that allows a minnow the opportunity to jump the queue like Sligo last year. Seeding provincial championships is boring.

The seeding of provincial champions and runners up as first and second seeds does not have too great of an impact in a system where 12 of the 16 teams qualify for the knockout stages.

Current set up ain’t perfect but it’s a major improvement on what went before.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121691996#Comment_121691996

But your idea abandons that fairness in Connacht. You want the current rotation of who plays London and New York to continue. It should be New York at 33 and let London battle it out in the League. Why a special system for Connacht, and none for Ulster to allow a rotation of their preliminary round?

gormdubhgorm

I see that Fitzmaurice has a theory on why the Ulster teams have started so well in the league. None of them have lost, Fermanagh got a draw. He thinks it is because the Ulster teams take the McKenna Cup seriously.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2024/0129/1429170-fitzmaurice-ulster-counties-have-the-edge-in-january/

Jayus, if they are taking the McKenna Cup seriously what will Ulster be like come the championship?

It is the 90's all over again?

dxhound2005

Dublin, Kerry and Louth all lost to Ulster teams by one point, a kick of a ball. Louth failed to score from a 45, the last kick of the game. Stats can be made to prove anything. But if this Ulster dominance continues we will have 5 Ulster teams in Division 1 next year, and the other 4 in Division 2.

legendary.xix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121692137#Comment_121692137

Three Connacht counties finished in the top 3 of Division 1 last year. How is it benefitting the Connacht Championship by having a one sided final? A balanced draw is the only way to provide fairer provincial finals on merit.

legendary.xix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121692276#Comment_121692276

A completely fair comment. Ideally Connacht would rank counties 1 to 7 based on the league. 2 to 4 drawn against 5 to 7 in the quarter-finals. The highest ranked county given a bye to the semi-finals.

I accept the reality that there is an agreed rotation for playing London and New York. Within the confines of that reality, I have suggested the fairest ranking possible. Two teams play London and New York as per the agreed rotation. The highest ranked county of the remaining 3 given a bye to the semi-finals. The other 2 counties contest the third quarter-final. The two counties ranked 1 and 2 kept on opposite sides of the draw for the semi-finals.

dxhound2005

There is still no need to disrupt the provincial championships by introducing seedings from the League. They are stand alone competitions played when counties deploy their strongest panels, and fitness levels are up from the League. The League is a flawed competition, with no home and away. And Mayo v Monaghan last year is an example of a dead rubber for Mayo, which allowed Monaghan to stay up.

Football started on the wrong foot way back. By making their knockout comptetion the premier format, and the League the secondary format. Worse again skewing the knockout competition by the provincial set up. For 100 years, 16 counties got just one game a year in the knockout competition, and another 8 got 2. What has been going on the last 25 years is an attempt to make that knockout competition into something where everyone gets a few chances.

Your idea is not going to improve anything. Especially as has been shown, Munster and Leinster already seed their competitions, with no reference to League performance. And you have the Connacht anomaly, and Ulster is a success with its current set up. And seedings from the League are used anyway, when the All Ireland and Setanta competitions begin.

The premier competition should be a home and away League. But there is no chance of that happening anytime soon. Probably even less chance of your idea being adopted by the provinces.

harpsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672512#Comment_121672512

Seems like a good idea. Would give more emphasis to the league. Personally I think some link should be kept between provincial championships and all Ireland. For most counties winning a provincial is still a big deal, and is a medal worth winning. I think it would be devalued as a stand alone competition

harpsman

If you can’t finish among the top 14 teams in the league then you’re probably better off in the tailteann cup and playing in a competition you can win, with the added incentive of a guaranteed place in next years Sam Maguire if you do win it

legendary.xix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121696763#Comment_121696763

Munster has a flawed seeding. The provincial finalists from the previous season can still be on the same side of the draw. Unless Cork are relegated and one or both of Clare and Limerick are promoted, the most likely Munster seeding from the league will be 1. Kerry, 2. Cork, 3. Clare, 4. Limerick, 5. Tipperary and 6. Waterford. A fairer draw then is:

Quarter-finals: Clare v Tipperary and Limerick v Waterford

Semi-finals: Cork v Clare/Tipperary and Kerry v Limerick/Waterford.

If the trajectory of Clare and Limerick is that they miss out on a provincial final and the 7 league qualifier spots, they'll be better off in the Tailteann for a year and possibly get to a Tailteann semi-final in Croke Park at least.

dxhound2005

They are very unlikely to get a place in Sam by getting promotion. The seedings to allocate teams to Sam and Tailteann ranks the last place in Division 2 above the top of Division 3. You are trying to make it even more certain that Kerry will get their 85th Munster title, and Cork will get their 55th runner up. But also get a guaranteed place in Sam. Even though Cork won the All Ireland in 2010, they have not won a Munster since 2012.

legendary.xix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121697196#Comment_121697196

Tipperary have made two All-Ireland semi-finals in the last 10 years. Clare and Limerick were both in Division 2 last year. It's not beyond any of the 3 to be in Division 2 and using that as a base to challenge for getting to Munster finals. Clare beat Cork in Munster last year and fully deserved their place in the final.

I think the Munster and Connacht championships will be better served by having the top two in the league on either side of their draws. If others can beat the top 2 seeds to make the final, the best of luck to them!

Roscommon 2-08 Mayo 0-10

Galway 1-13 Roscommon 1-09

Galway 2-20 Sligo 0-12

Was Galway v Sligo really provincial final quality? Derry v Armagh was the only competitive provincial final last year. A balanced draw in Connacht would have produced a competitive Connacht final. The 4 provincial finals as a collective reflection of the provincial championships can do with as many competitive provincial finals as possible. The open draw is leading to lopsided provincial draws and one-sided provincial finals that are tarnishing the provincial championships.

The Tailteann Cup is a new era and a new opportunity. If Sligo lose to Galway in a Connacht final, they can embark on a Tailteann expedition and target getting to Croke Park. The same for Clare and Limerick in Munster.

dxhound2005

Sligo contested 6 finals since 2000, and won Connacht in 2007. London made the final in 2013. Leitrim won it in 1994. But in the last 132 years the big three won it every year except five. It is just so unnecessary to try to eliminate the weak counties from any possibility of getting a bit of success. When it is so rare anyway.

K-9

I wonder would Sligo or Westmeath preferred Tailteann Cup or All Ireland group games? Which would stand to them in the long run? Will be interesting to see if either, or both go up to Division 2.

legendary.xix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121697518#Comment_121697518

Fair point but then the provincial winners only should qualify for the All-Ireland group stage along with the Tailteann winner and 11 league qualifiers.

legendary.xix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121698263#Comment_121698263

Westmeath fully deserved their place in the All-Ireland series last year. They were very close to knocking out Tyrone.

Sligo had a very soft route to the Connacht final, denying Meath a place in the All-Ireland series. A fairer All-Ireland and Tailteann last year would have had Meath in the All-Ireland and Sligo in the Tailteann.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121701073#Comment_121701073

That goes against the 94% vote in favour of what was agreed. From the link in the OP, there is actually a move in certain quarters to make the AI series easier for the provincial champions. But not a word about making the runners up depend on League positions. The thing has only run for one year, so I can't see the logic of not giving it a chance to prove itself. I was convinced that the Tailteann would turn out to be another All Ireland B / Tommy Murphy Cup fiasco. But it could survive and prosper.

"With the provincial champions now only offered a seeded spot in a 16-team round robin format, current Connacht and Leinster CEOs John Prenty and Michael Reynolds recently called for tweaks to be made to provide greater incentive for winning the province."

legendary.xix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121701139#Comment_121701139

"With the provincial champions now only offered a seeded spot in a 16-team round robin format, current Connacht and Leinster CEOs John Prenty and Michael Reynolds recently called for tweaks to be made to provide greater incentive for winning the province."

The Connacht and Munster champions lost a group match. The Leinster and Ulster champions drew a group match. Provincial champions could be knocked out after one loss if they go directly to the quarter-finals. The only incentive I can see for provincial champions is that they would host the group stage. Provincial champions would be rewarded 3 home games and all other counties 1 home game.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121695889#Comment_121695889

Fitzmaurice is talking through his hat. For years noboby other than Mickey Harte has shown much interest in winning the McKenna Cup. Armagh put out their U20`s against Donegal this year.As Joe Brolly said a few years ago even the McKenna`s have no interest in the McKenna Cup nowadays

When it comes to calls for scrapping the provincials, we are now at the provincial final stages of the provincial championship, and for all this talk about the dire standard of football being played in Ulster, if it wasn`t for the Ulster championship you would not know there was a championship going on. All the Ulster games have been competative whereas the fare from the other three provinces has been dire.

Ulster has a provincial championship that teams value and fans love with games well attended. Just because the other provinces cannot get their acts together and provide competative games is no reason for Ulster to scrap theirs.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122076103#Comment_122076103

Fair point but there is one good provincial championship, two awful ones, another that hanging on. Only for Ulster the GAA wouldn't bother with the provincial's any more IMO.

Plus looking at the draw after the provincials - Time of writing Armagh to play Donegal in Ulster Final. Donegal hot favourites. Derry and Tyrone are now in the hat for the draw on Tuesday. Is that an easier route for the AI title does it devalue the provincial in the first place?