Ulster says no - Provincial competition is no1 - Jim McGuinness

gormdubhgorm

I saw this article on RTE -

https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2024/0123/1428166-mcguinness-leaps-to-defence-of-provincial-championships/

McGuinness talking up the Ulster provincial championship. And he seems really against the scrapping of the provincial system.

My heart sunk when I saw this. Basically a few high profile people in Ulster (like McGuinness) are holding the rest of Gaelic football to ransom. I believe they are setting Gaelic football back 20/30 years with this "traditional Ulster attitude".

The real irony is that Banty with Monaghan seemed to take the the National League more seriously than the Ulster championship.

The reality is that a lot of the teams in Ulster play the same dour way, meaning no entertainment for the neutrals. Yes the province might be "competitive" but is it entertaining? Where is the variations/contrasts in style?

The dour style of Ulster teams is basically a copycat of McGuinness 2011/2012. It is also not lost on me that when Tyrone won the AI v Mayo they did so because the dour 'safety first' Micky Harte style was loosened a bit when he was forced to step down.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058332965/ulster-says-no-provincial-competition-is-no1-jim-mcguinness

Nail on head. Football is odious at this stage at intercounty level. I just dont care. I look forward to kildare getting knocked out so we can focus on club.

Let Ulster keep their championship. But run it independent of the all ireland series. Open draw.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121663180#Comment_121663180

Let me just be clear as well, I think McGuinness was clever bringing in his men behind the ball tactics and going on the counter, getting a Sam out of nothing. It took the GAA world a few years to figure out how to stop it. But loads of teams still do it now, particularly Ulster teams.

But McGuinness saying things like he is about the provincial championship he is either talking it up for the sake of it, or he is not as smart as I thought he was.

blowitupref

Main point he made which is fair enough.

"The bottom line for us is that it will always be the number one competition. Whenever we're out of that competition, the next one will be the number one competition. There is two competitions every single year, in terms of championship football, and you focus on the first one first and the second one second"

Ulster is ultra competitive with Derry, Tyrone, Monaghan, Armagh and what should be a improved Donegal under Jim McGuinness. To be the best among that championship will be a good title to win and I don't agree all games is dour in Ulster and not entertaining for the neutrals.

Tyrone v Monaghan for example last year was arguably the best and most entertaining game of the championship.

Two Ulster teams (Derry, Monaghan) reached the All-Ireland AI semi finals and played their part in entertaining matches.

If you watch back on Donegal All-Ireland series matches in 2012 against Cork, Kerry and Mayo it wouldn't be clased as dour. Some seemed to just remember the dour Dublin v Donegal 2011 semi final and think all games was like that when he was manager the last time?

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121663259#Comment_121663259

Well I am not sure about that it was a match McGuinness was not involved in anyway in recent years, it was one of those Ulster games that were televised simultaneously both on RTE and on the BBC. The same match. Just different commentators/analysis

On the BBC it was "Ulster championship" this "Ulster Championship" that that sounded very excited very animated. Talked up everything on the pitch. Meanwhile on RTE the vibe was this is not a great game is it lads? The difference between the two channels was night and day. Unfortunately, I can't remember which match it was for the life of me. But the difference between the two broadcasters was the memorable part for me.

Anyway, maybe I have read it completely wrong and McGuinness's comments are less about "The Ulster Championship", but more about him trying to gee up and put some fire into his players. You should be doing better than they have given the players available?

blowitupref

RTÉ are well known for their negative vibes and was at its worst with Brolly and Pat trading off with their attention seeking agenda going on. Be interesting to see how they deal with Derry this year as they should be there or thereabours for Div 1 title and strong contenders for Sam and have a new manager who will continue to avoid them.

Once are fit and organised Donegal will be a good team. It's been the opposite for them the last number of years and players using any little excuse to opted out.

NIMAN

Im not a big GAA follower, but i watched a 'big game'last year in the Ulster Championship last year between Derry and Donegal.

It was putrid stuff. Put me right off watching any more Ulster football for a while.

Can't see things getting any better under McGuinness.

henke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121665931#Comment_121665931

They didn't meet in Ulster last year. They met in the All Ireland group stages. This is going to happen anyway with Ulster being the biggest contributor of teams to the All Ireland 16 team group stage.

Treble double

Ah I think McGuinness was talking out of both sides of his mouth about the Ulster Championship. However he was very honest in a local radio interview that was picked up by the papers about where Donegal are in the pecking order, he said teams outside the top tier of bluebloods have to think outside the box tactically to bridge the gap, he did it 10 years ago but it is harder now because teams are more tactically advanced. It will be interesting to see what he comes up with. There are very few original thinkers on the game out there, alot of copycat stuff going on. He is definitely an original thinker.

bucketybuck

The Ulster championship or some **** 8 team round robin where none of the matches matter a damn.

I know which I'd rather watch.

Its should be provincials first and then a 32 team knockout All Ireland. But people would rather whinge about Ulster than address the real problems.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121671379#Comment_121671379

Ah I see, playing the equivalent of the Donegal "cute hoor", so those from the outside looking in won't pay much heed to Donegal as they are focused on Ulster etc?

A lot of neutrals will be curious to see what style of play he comes up with, tweak what worked worked when he was successful, or go whole new direction?

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121671422#Comment_121671422

You would not make much money on a 32 team knockout if the big teams were knocked out early though. Not good for putting bums on seats.

As for Ulster I think Derry are a bit ahead of everyone else in the province, Armagh are one dimensional, Monaghan have a lot of miles on the clock, and Donegal look like heading for a revamp. Tyrone? I don't know what to make of them.

I will be keeping more of an eye of how the Ulster teams play in the league rather than the Ulster championship to be honest. More of a barometer IMO - especially div1.

BaywatchHQ

Hopefully Derry can win this year and I may frame my programmes and tickets for the 3 in a row. A special competition in a special ground.

tanko

Oh dear, the anti Ulster bigotry rears its head yet again, surprise surprise. I suppose something had to be started to after Glen winning the all Ireland club final. What kind of shape is the Leinster football championship in these days?

legendary.xix

The league should be seeding for the provincial championships. Have the provincial draw on the morning after the league finals.

ULSTER

PRELIMINARY ROUND

Seed 8 v Seed 9

QUARTER-FINALS

Top 4 seeds drawn against the remainder.

SEMI-FINALS

Winners of the match involving the top 2 seeds drawn against the other 2 semi-finalists.

LEINSTER

PRELIMINARY ROUND

Seed 6 to 8 drawn against Seeds 9 to 11.

QUARTER-FINALS

Top 4 seeds drawn against the remainder.

SEMI-FINALS

Winners of the match involving the top 2 seeds drawn against the other 2 semi-finalists.

MUNSTER

QUARTER-FINALS

Seeds 3 & 4 drawn against Seeds 5 & 6.

SEMI-FINALS

Top 2 seeds drawn against the other 2 semi-finalists.

CONNACHT

QUARTER-FINALS

Rotation of teams playing London and New York retained.

Of the other 3 counties, the top seed receiving a bye to the semi-finals. The remaining 2 counties contesting a quarter-final.

SEMI-FINALS

Top 2 seeds drawn against the other 2 semi-finalists.

This way the provincial draws are more balanced. For a lower league county to make a provincial final, they would have to beat one of the top 2 seeds in their province, unless someone else does that for them!

dxhound2005

You are throwing up a bit of a nightmare for the GAA there. They went to the trouble last December of organising the 18 teams who would be in action a week after the League Finals. But as it happens your 8 and 9 in Ulster are already decided, and they are meeting in the last 8 a week after that. Possibly with Leinster counties being so weak in the League, and perennial also rans in Connacht and Munster, your system might not make much difference?

As an aside all except New York of those 18 have the potential to be playing 4 weekends in a row, if they make a League Final. Would you keep the same calendar?

06.04.2024 (Sat) Connacht GAA Football Senior Championship | Quarter-Final Londain v Gaillimh

07.04.2024 (Sun) Connacht GAA Football Senior Championship | Quarter-Finals New York v Maigh Eo, Sligeach v Liatroim

Leinster GAA Football Senior Championship | Round 1 An Iarmhí v Cill Mhantáin, Loch Garman v Ceatharlach, An Longfort v An Mhí

Munster GAA Football Senior Championship | Quarter-Finals Tiobraid Árann v Port Láirge, Luimneach v Corcaigh

Ulster GAA Football Senior Championship | Preliminary Round Muineachán v An Cabhán

13.04.2024 (Sat) Ulster GAA Football Senior Championship | Quarter-Final An Dun v Aontroim

K-9

The provincial championship is gone, there is no way of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic to make them competitive again. They should be played in February or March and then play the league, which now feeds into the championship.

Seriously what do you do with them, throw Dublin out and have a proper Leinster championship or let everybody play off against each other in Munster to play Kerry.

McGuinness wants to lay down a marker this year like he did in 2011 beating Tyrone. He knew how big it was for that team to get one over them. Doing well in it suits him atm. In a year or two I doubt he'll take at as seriously as this year.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672295#Comment_121672295

It more Ulster holding the rest of the country to ransom as I said in my original post. As for Ulster bigotry it is not that. Why do Ulster people always throw that out. Is it to shut down debate?

Last year you will find I was eulogising about Rodgers and Glass as the best midfield pairing in the country. And I am convinced Glenn would have won the AI last year only for Glass got injured early on v Kilmacud. I was at the game. If you look at last years AI club thread you will find the posts.

But the impression I get is that those from Ulster ‘talk up’ the Ulster championship much like how Munster hurling people ‘talk up’ the Munster Hurling Championship. There is manufactured excitement about even the most attritional games. Which means nothing will change. Until Ulster changes the mindset. At least be open to restructuring. McGuinness’ comments if a true reflection of what he thinks of the Ulster championship- can only send the GAA backwards IMO.

dxhound2005

Leinster want to restructure the system to give an even bigger advantage to Dublin. They should be trying to improve the chances of the other counties by devoting less resources to Dublin football. A diversion of finances to the hurlers could produce teams capable of competing in Leinster, like in the old days. Dublin is still second to Kilkenny in the Leinster hurling roll of honour.

"With the provincial champions now only offered a seeded spot in a 16-team round robin format, current Connacht and Leinster CEOs John Prenty and Michael Reynolds recently called for tweaks to be made to provide greater incentive for winning the province."

mikefromcork

I have no idea what changes would work but it's crazy that gaelic football's most competitive and entertaining competition gets relegated to its 6th most important.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121674880#Comment_121674880

You are probably the correct poster to ask, as a Cork person are you bothered about the Munster football championship at all?

I mean the last big win Cork had was in the covid disrupted year 2020, which I remember for a number of reasons. Where Cork shocked Kerry because of the Aussie Rules fella who had to stay because of Covid (I never saw Tomas O'Se as annoyed before or sense) , but Tipp had different ideas with their Aussie Rules fella.

Besides that I cannot remember paying heed to the Munster championship.

I got to be honest on Ulster I tune in to see if there will be a scrap. Or a sending off. It is not entertainment I am expecting. I am expecting attrition, muck and bullets type stuff. Normally low scoring, tactical. They all seem set up that sort of way in Ulster.

Connaught is just Galway v Mayo, with one or both of the pair with an eye on the "business end" of championship. I suppose Leinster is a lot like Munster now as well put one of stronger div1 teams in a province with teams that would struggle in div2 at best.

I think Ulster is actually putting itself at a disadvantage by wanting to keep the current structure. More likely to get injuries and sendings off, because of the style of play attrition. Then by the time the "business end" "the real championship" comes around, the "survivors" from the other provinces are much fresher than the Ulster teams. In fact in Dublin/Kerry's case the opposite is the issue. The worry nearly always is now are Kerry/Dublin undercooked?

legendary.xix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672896#Comment_121672896

I would suggest the following:

NFL Round 1

NFL Round 2

NFL Round 3

NFL Round 4

Weekend off

NFL Round 5

NFL Round 6

NFL Round 7

NFL Finals. Provincial draw using the league ranking as seeding on the Monday morning after the league finals.

Weekend off

Provincial championships start as per normal.

K-9

As Off the Ball put it a couple of years back: if you were starting from scratch, who in their right mind would start with the provincial championships? 11 teams in one Championship and 6 in another.

If Clare don't get promoted from Division 3, that leaves a Division 3 or 4 team in the Munster final, thus depriving a Division 2 team a place in the All Ireland championship. Absolute madness a lucky draw like that, or Sligo last year, affects another team in a higher Division.

dxhound2005

You're jumping ahead there. Clare are a Division 3 team, and it doesn't matter whether they get promoted. Cavan and Fermanagh did not get any advantage in the Championship by getting promoted from Divison 3 last year. We are having a rehash of the arguments going on for a couple of years. Everyone at Congress in 2022 knew what they were voting for, in giving Provincial finalists a place in Sam. They also knew that the Connacht schedule for who plays London and New York was set out years ago, and continues for years ahead. They voted 94% in favour of this so called absolute madness

Just because some "weak" county gets a little bit of success once in a blue moon, it causes some people to lose the plot.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121678206#Comment_121678206

The funny thing is I just realised, I have never heard anyone from Ulster saying they don't like the Ulster championship. That must be a unique thing in itself. So I suppose "Jimmy's winning matches" is not alone in that.

The Ulster lads from all counties stick together for the most part - and support the Ulster team that progresses, that is not their own. That certainly is not the way it is the other three provinces.

There is definitely a regional pride that the other provinces don't have. I had to to a bit of searching to find out the year it must have been- (2002 I'd say) , when I had first hand realisation of this.

I was at the all-ireland football quarter finals, back when it was real novelty tense games. I used to wander off to those QF's in Croke Park as a neutral if I could. If I was lucky enough to be able to get a ticket as you got to see (normally) two good matches back to back.

I ended up sitting between two fellas from two different Ulster counties an auldish fella and a younger fella. Everything was pleasant and cordial during the first match. Offering each other sweets etc. It was grand.

But the younger fella made a fatal mistake during the second match.

Says he "I am going to support Sligo against Armagh because my girlfriend is from Sligo"

Well the older fella took grave offence to this with a face like thunder, he said "You call yourself an Ulster mon" etc. They stopped talking to each other for the rest of the match, there were no more sweets offered! It was fairly awkward. 🤐

As long as Ulster people have that level of passion for their Ulster football, the Ulster championship is going to remain. And be as McGuinness said "no1" for them.

dxhound2005

Did they offer you any sweets?

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121678354#Comment_121678354

That was the funny part they did! And both on either side stayed talking away about the match to me. I was half tempted to take the sweet from one fella if offered, then give it to the other fella instead. But I was in a very precarious position as it was!

I suppose that era was not only the best years of the football championship (lots of shocks) but arguably the 00's was a better decade for Ulster football than the 90's. Even Fermanagh had a great run one year, from nowhere.

K-9

I'm Donegal myself and I know the provincials are on their last legs. The Munster Hurling championship got away with it because it was easy to add Galway over to Leinster and then the group thing started.

Don't get me wrong, I love it, hearing the national anthem being played in the Athletic Grounds in 1988 (the day Houghton put the ball in the England) was next only, in emotional terms, to hearing it in Croke Park on Donegal All Ireland days. Spine tingling stuff when you are a teenager and it dawns on you why, and how much that means to them.

Ps. I'm not getting too bothered by it. But IIRC it was the provinces who kicked back against the original proposals and brought in the provincial finalist thing.

As far as I know, Fermanagh and Cavan would have played in the All Ireland last year after getting promoted, they lost out because Connacht and Munster had guaranteed Division 3 or 4 finalists, so the usual rules changed.

legendary.xix

The thing that is often overlooked is that there was a motion and proposals to even out the provinces. These proposals didn't gain traction. For some counties their provincial first round is their provincial final. Joining a neighbouring province to make up the numbers doesn't have allure for them.

Club championships have different numbers of clubs etc. All counties can still only provide one county winner per tiered club championship. The democratic right of counties voting in favour of retaining the provincial championships should be respected.

Provincial councils are shooting themselves in the foot by not utilising the league for seeding the provincial draws. Counties claim their league ranking on merit and it will be very fair to use that for province seeding. If provincial councils use the league ranking for provincial seeding, it will cement league in the spring before the provincial championships.

dxhound2005

The ranking of teams already exists in taking the lower counties away from the All Ireland series. The Tailteann Cup of 2023 consisted of 14 counties which started the League in Divisions 3 and 4. Along with Meath and Limerick from Division 2. Sam was 14 counties from Divisions 1 and 2 along with Westmeath from 3 (Tailteann champions) and Sligo from 4.

Was it such a disaster to have Meath in the Tailteann Cup, and Sligo and Clare in Sam and in provincial finals? This seeding business seems designed to make sure that only the big counties can ever hope to get to a provincial final.

K-9

It isn't a big deal, but would Cavan and Fermanagh instead been much different?

I do agree, if we are going to keep the Provincials, there needs to be some incentive for doing well, but we are back to Sligo getting there because they got a lucky, lopsided draw, whereas Antrim or Carlow are never going to get as fortunate a draw. It's an inherently unfair system, 6 or 7 teams in Connacht and Munster versus 11 in Leinster and 9 in the most competitive province.

So if you are being correct, certain weaker teams in certain provinces benefit from the provincial final system, weaker Ulster and Leinster teams not so much.