Handrails on stairs necessary?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121699543#Comment_121699543

"Professionals" says you, trying to fob us off. As we found out, it comes down to if you think the edge of the plywood could be "readily gripped by hand" or not. I asked one professional and he thought they would not comply, so opinions differ. However, as we know professionals make mistakes all the time. ( I do not want to derail the thread, but for example were not the walls of the front extension last Sunday night a lot higher - "5 tiles higher" - than they were on drawings? So professionals can and do make mistakes? )

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121699691#Comment_121699691

I asked one professional 

😀

If they have given a professional opinion they should be prepared to stand over it. So you can name them.

Or else we can safely conclude it is not an opinion they care to stand over.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121699691#Comment_121699691

"Professionals" says I, one of the many professionals who have shared their knowledge, advice and guidance on these forums for several years, and who have all agreed on this thread that they appear to comply.

Not trying to fob you off, trying to desperately get it through to you that just because you think something doesn't comply does not matter. Just because you think something should or could be safer does not matter. Just because you think the Irish regs should align fully with the UK regs does not matter.

The stairs comply with the regulations, they have been designed, specified, installed and certified by those responsible for making sure they comply, and you have not been able to demonstrate that they don't.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121698920#Comment_121698920

A handrails function is not to catch you as you slip, fall and catch MS.

If you slip, fall then the you are gone beyond the functional requirement of a handrail.

That stairs posted looks compliant to me. A lot of craftsmanship went into it. Is it yours?

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121699197#Comment_121699197

If you google cars, you’ll see the vast majority of cars have 4 wheels and indicator stalks, yet, in the real world , outside of the plain vanilla design, there are cars with 3 wheels and some cars have no indicator stalks.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121699987#Comment_121699987

I wouldn't even say to name them (I'm sure as sh*t not giving out my name), but if their professional buddy can even demonstrate why the handrails don't comply other than just "My buddy doesn't think they comply", there'd be something to discuss.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121700017#Comment_121700017

You say "A handrails function is not to catch you as you slip, fall and catch MS." Do you really need to poke fun at people that have MS?

A handrails definition and function was described already. You would hold on to it sometime while ascending or descending the stairs, especially near those kite winder steps only a few inches wide on one side. And more often if you were elderly, had a sprained ankle, were short sighted, drunk etc. It would also be something you could suddenly grab if you were carrying laundry or a kid, for example, or simply careless, and stumbled or tripped.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121700658#Comment_121700658

Hold onto the top profile of the guarding. If you slip, fall or have MS, a perfect handrail profile won’t save you unfortunately. This is not the movies, or Mission Impossible, if you suddenly slip and fall while carrying a child or laundry, you are not grabbing a handrail and stopping yourself.

“I know a few people seriously injured in falls:”

Out of all the falls on stairs you state you have experienced with, how many of them stairs had handrails yet helped none of them?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121699296#Comment_121699296

You're great for slagging off other posts as personal opinion while you post your personal opinion.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121700693#Comment_121700693

For people who are elderly, sight impaired, have MS, a sprained ankle, carrying a kid or laundry etc, are they more likely to grip a proper, rounded handrail (even sub-consciously) or the relatively thin, sharp edge of vertical plywood?

Bear in mind a handrail is usually defined as " a rail fixed to posts or a wall for people to hold on to for support." or " a long, narrow bar of wood or metal that people can hold on to for support" or " a long piece of metal or wood which is fixed near stairs or places where people could slip and fall".

According to the regs, the handrail should be be capable of being readily gripped by hand.

On behalf of a few people I know who were injured in falls ( and 280 people a year have been killed in falls in Ireland, with many more injured ), at least we have raised awareness of safety in stairs. I am not posting in this thread again because it is going around in circles and we have found out what we wanted to know. Thank you all.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121700736#Comment_121700736

Based on the regs.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121700752#Comment_121700752

They'll grip the compliant handrail on the stairs which has been provided in accordance with the Irish regulations and if they require particular handrails in their own home due to their own conditions/circumstances they can have those handrails installed. A more conventional handrail can be retrofit to sit on top of the existing plywood guarding (which constitutes a handrail in accordance with regulations) in the future if they wanted/needed.

SodiumCooled

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121677298#Comment_121677298

I have not read all the thread so you may have had multiple examples already shown to you contradicting your interpretation of uk regs but here is UK stairs with only a glass edge much thinner than the ply handrail being discussed. So obviously these types of handrail do meet UK regs in total contradiction to what you're claiming. Also televised on Grand Designs just like the room to improve one.

https://www.firststepdesigns.com/case-studies/wye-valley

SodiumCooled

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670306#Comment_121670306

I don't think I have ever seen a house in Ireland (old, new, self build or developer lead) that had a handrail on both sides unless the stairs didn't have a wall on one side (and the vast majority of stars have a wall on one side).

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121699114#Comment_121699114

If the owners wanted a handrail, they would have simply have said "We'd like a handrail". You are acting as if they bought off the plans and got screwed by a builder leaving parts off. This is the design they wanted.

A handrail for dwellings is not defined, this is as easily gripped as many handrails that you would find standard. Possibly as easy as the one you grew up with, or even have at home now.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121699289#Comment_121699289

"If my Grandmother had wheels she would have been a bike" 😂🤣😂

The owners are not elderly, they do not have MS. Why are you making up nonsense whataboutery. If a client was elderly, has MS, was in a wheelchair, had one arm, etc. A design would massively impact that that critical information. I'm shock an expert in technical design such as yourself is unaware of that.

As for "relatively thin". How thin do you think it is? How thick do you think it should be? It's not ideal, but the issue is not it's thickness. 😕

Most likely, the handrail you have at home is no more appropriate.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121699691#Comment_121699691

Of course, nobody is infallible. But it's far more likely that a profession you does this for a living will make a better judgement than a layperson who consistently misinterpreted the regs. The "professional" you asked had to look up the regs, so safe to assume this is not his area - if he exists.

And a builder making an extension bigger than it was on the drawings. You think the drawings are at fault there 😂. That's a good one.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121700736#Comment_121700736

There's nothing wrong with personal opinion. We all have opinions.

But a opinion based on the actual regs should be held in high regard that one based on a misunderstand of the the regs. And if that person regurgitates the same misunderstand as fact, over and over. It's not really an opinion anymore - misinformation, alternate facts, or simply lies. Pick your label.

To be clear, not aiming that at you. I think it's clear to where approaching it with a genuine concern future proofing. Unfortunately, you misjudged you're baseline. (TGD vrs UD).

sydthebeat

How this thread has made it to ten pages of beyond me??

We have professionals telling lay people what is compliant, but they just refuse to accept it.

muffler

Have a look at other threads started by the OP which will explain what's happening here.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121681258#Comment_121681258

You should tell that again to the so called experts here; On behalf of a few people I know who were injured seriously in falls, I wish they would put their efforts in to designing safer stairs, if indeed they do have skin in the game as they claim.

I am definitely out of this thread now so thank you again.

muffler

Amen.

This is it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121706738#Comment_121706738

They've another 2-3 on the go

C. Eastwood

The 5 purposes of the Building Regulations are as follows:-

1. Health, and Welfare, and Safety of People in or around buildings
2. Access for Persons with Disabilities 
3. Conservation of Fuel and Energy.

In accordance with the Health and Welfare and Safety of people, - and Access for people with Disabilities, - and in accordance with K1 of TGD K - of course there should be a handrail on the 3 steps. It’s common sense. It is necessary for elderly people and people with disabilities and children, etc.

The edge of a sheet of plywood is not ergonomically designed for a persons handgrip and is therefore not a proper and safe handrail and is not in compliance with the Building Regulations.

I always avoid having any internal steps in Rooms - on the ground floor and on the upper floors in a dwellinghouse.

Someone mentioned looking for the Building Regulations instead of the Technical Guidance Documents (TGD). The Requirements of the Building Regulations are stated - Highlighted in Grey on all TGD’s. See attached example from Technical Guidance Document K - Stairways, Ladders, Ramps and Guards. The TGD explains how these requirements of the Building Regulations can be achieved.

IMG_6629.jpeg

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121706635#Comment_121706635

Where those multi people injured in falls, injured in falls on residential stairs? Did they have handrails?

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121709062#Comment_121709062

It was pointed out already that the actual refs are in the TGD grey box. They weren’t really after that regulations.

I agree that a split level ground floor is not ideal, and potentially contrary to part M. But you can’t always avoid it, an existing building on a sloped site, is very different to a flat new build. Every situation in individual - and the TGD recognises that.

A ply edge isn't ergonomic. Neither are the vast majority of residential handrails. That's pretty clear seeing as the vast majority don't meet the requirements for public handrails.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121703689#Comment_121703689

The baseline for legal compliance is the building regs, not TGD or UD. There's a very valid question though as to what the baseline should be for a new build. The UD principle of preparing for the future, given that we're all getting older every day is absolutely sound.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121701492#Comment_121701492

I grew up in a house with two handrails. I think one was a retrofit, as parents got older.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121700759#Comment_121700759

No more or no less based on the regs than the personal opinions of others that you keep slagging off. You're not the only one who gets to have opinions.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121711337#Comment_121711337

'The guarding may form the handrail....'

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121698426#Comment_121698426

Ease of conversion isn't 'your point'. You don't have a monopoly on points. I've been making that point since the start of the conversation, with points like these.

• It is poor practice to design stairs that are too narrow to accommodate two handrails.
• The problem is that when you come to retrofit a handrail, possibly two handrails, you don't have enough available width for proper handrails without narrowing the stair. It's always better to include these things as part of the initial design rather than trying to shoehorn them in later on.

It's not the first time Dermot's designs have failed to reasonably future proof things for his clients:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120176864#Comment_120176864

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120181924#Comment_120181924

The above comment related to his new build in Blessington for an elderly couple that include a stepped front entrance.

CEUD guidance absolutely IS government guidance. It's not statutory guidance like the TGD, but it absolutely IS guidance from a government body.

You don't need to explain Part M, TGD, UD and accessible design thanks. I'm quite familiar with these.

I've never suggested that they need to fit every possible feature from day one. I've suggested that the design needs to accommodate the fitting of every possible feature in the future.

In the case of the staircase, it needs to be wide enough to accommodate two proper handrails, one on each side.

It isn't wide enough to accommodate two proper handrails, one on each side - so it is a poor design by Dermot, poor future proofing.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121711392#Comment_121711392

Funny how you always leave out the conditions when you quote this.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121711697#Comment_121711697

Stairs in a private dwelling don't need to be wide enough to accommodate a handrail on both sides (the vast majority of stairs would have a wall on one side. They only need a handrail on both sides if the width is greater than 1m. And on the other side with the timber guarding, a more ergonomic handrail could be fixed to the top of the guarding without reducing the width of the stairs if required. Even if there were then concerns that the handrail would be too high, the height of the guarding could be reduced (as it's just timber) and the handrail fit to the top of it to keep the height the same.

The stairs are suitably designed and compliant with regulations.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121711747#Comment_121711747

I'm not talking about compliance with building regs.

I'm talking about good practice with a new build. Parents carrying young kids benefit from double handrails. People with the head buried in their phone benefit from dual handrails. People carrying laundry or anything else benefit from double handrails.

It's poor design in this scenario.