Is Dublin really safe? *Read OP for mod warning*

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123146094#Comment_123146094

But there isn't riots in Dublin every day. And, unbeknownst to you, riots are pretty common in large cities (much rarer in Ireland and Dublin), but they're usually contained, how many innocent bystanders were injured in the Dublin riot? I was in the city during the riot (with friends including a black Irish girl!) and it was very very easily detected and avoided. I'm not condoning them, I hate to see any part of our country being vandalised or destroyed but there's not a huge chance of being killed unless you're involved or indeed one of the Gardai that were injured.

Regarding guns, the Gardai aren't the Taliban. Modern police can't just go around shooting people dead in a riot unless there's a direct threat to life. There's a lot or confusion here regarding police and firearms, one poster things people should be shot for running away from the police. It doesn't work like the movies I'm afraid.

The city doesn't need Gardai with guns. It just needs Gardai.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123146322#Comment_123146322

You prefer out of control riots then?

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123146494#Comment_123146494

Again, there isn't riots every day in Dublin, I know a lot of media will have you believe so but it's not the case.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123146491#Comment_123146491

If they are armed it's less likely to escalate in the first place. Would anyone seriously threaten a Garda that carries a gun?

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123146510#Comment_123146510

It doesn't matter every day or not. The force should be armed to deal with the threats that exist.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123146513#Comment_123146513

I see your point, but it will escalate no matter what, introducing guns won't help. You're not talking about geniuses here saabsaab. A lot of them would be immature boys and men showing off in front of their friends, some having taken a few bumps of something or other.

Here's a list of riots that occured in Dublin from Wikipedia.

• 1933 Dublin riot
• 2004 Dublin May Day protests
• 2010 student protest in Dublin
• 2021 Dublin riots
• 2023 Dublin riot

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123146562#Comment_123146562

Guns would help. It would be known very quickly that they may face lethal force if they go too far. You'd want to be really, really dumb to go up against that. That list of riots you quote probably isn't complete and in all of them the Gardai were not armed.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123146619#Comment_123146619

Why do they happen so much more often in cities with armed police forces?

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123146637#Comment_123146637

Do they? Perhaps in very large cities with massive populations. This is a small island without a history of being colonizers we don't have an excuse.

Take Boston as an example a similar sized city with a large Irish American population and armed police. Rarely mass riots in the last century and those were civil rights/political.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123146685#Comment_123146685

They do, London, Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Paris, Lyon, Marseille, Toulouse, Brussels, Antwerp, Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Stockholm, Malmö, Copenhagen, Berlin, Hamburg, Leipzig, Chemnitz, Athens, Thessaloniki, Madrid, Barcelona, Rome, Milan, Turin, Naples, Belfast, Derry, Warsaw, Budapest, and Prague have all experienced riots in the last 50 years. Most have armed police, most were far more destructive with far more injuries than the Dublin ones.

Small countries, large countries, mixed history etc…

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123146746#Comment_123146746

Prague, Belfast Derry all political effectively protests against police states at the time. Not the case with Dublin - mindless vandalism and opportunism. Boston would be more appropriate.

Esel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123146288#Comment_123146288

Didn't you actually want armoured cars at crossroads during Covid too?

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123146801#Comment_123146801

Ok, I'll remove those two and add the American ones. But it means the list gets longer.

London, Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Paris, Lyon, Marseille, Toulouse, Brussels, Antwerp, Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Stockholm, Malmö, Copenhagen, Berlin, Hamburg, Leipzig, Chemnitz, Athens, Thessaloniki, Madrid, Barcelona, Rome, Milan, Turin, Naples, Warsaw, Budapest, Prague, Gothenburg, Vienna, Zurich, Minneapolis, Portland, Seattle, Oakland, Atlanta, Miami, St. Louis, Kenosha, Milwaukee, Charlotte, Cincinnati, New Orleans, Louisville, Denver, Phoenix, Indianapolis, Memphis, Tulsa, Sacramento, Columbus, Jacksonville, Austin, San Antonio, Albuquerque, Baton Rouge, Richmond, Rochester, Pittsburgh, Providence, Springfield (MA), Hartford, Fort Wayne, Omaha, Des Moines.

And Boston.

Do you still think Dublin is unique with it's riot? And do you really think introducing guns is a good idea?

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123146874#Comment_123146874

Yes, I do. THe point has been reached when they are needed by the Gardai. I am not talking about protest/marchs. Australia has armed police and few riots unlike Dublin.

saabsaab

I did. If they were needed.

Podge_irl

The correlation between armed police and the existence of riots is completely and utterly non-existent. You think the Guards were gonna go round shooting rioters on the street to quell things? Completely ridiculous viewpoint.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123146904#Comment_123146904

Sydney (2004 and quickly again in 2005), Melbourne (2016), Brisbane (2004), Perth (1988), Adelaide (2016), Canberra (2015), Darwin (2016).

That's all the cities in Australia, notable Australian riots include the Cronulla Riots (2005) in Sydney, the Redfern Riots (2004) also in Sydney.. two in a row unlike Dublin and not forgetting the mulitple race-related protests and riots in Melbourne and Brisbane over the years. That's a lot more than Ireland.

John_Rambo

Double post

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123147042#Comment_123147042

They weren't needed as it didn't get that far as most obeyed the law.

saabsaab

Colonial leftover issues in Australia. Dublin shouldn't have that issue. I'll put your point in reverse Do you think taking the guns away from Australian police would have improved those riot situations? I doubt it would and probably led to more widespread trouble.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123147109#Comment_123147109

Of course they weren't needed, but you're to be forgiven. Covid was a difficult time for some and there was a lot of panic with people calling for armoured cars, guns etc… luckily calm prevailed.

So, back on topic… were under the impression that Australia has no riots because of the armed police force.

Sydney (2004 and quickly again in 2005), Melbourne (2016), Brisbane (2004), Perth (1988), Adelaide (2016), Canberra (2015), Darwin (2016).

That's all the cities in Australia, notable Australian riots include the Cronulla Riots (2005) in Sydney, the Redfern Riots (2004) also in Sydney.. two in a row unlike Dublin and not forgetting the mulitple race-related protests and riots in Melbourne and Brisbane over the years. That's a lot more than Ireland.

You're running out of continents.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123147141#Comment_123147141

So are you saying that taking away the guns from the Police would have helped? Probably helped the disorder become larger.

Dublin has become a place that armed Gardai are needed and no burying your head in the sand will change that. Gardai being beaten up and struggling to defend themselves not to talk of defending the public and property.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123147178#Comment_123147178

The Australian police had guns and still, riots happened. The rioters didn't care if they had guns, they never do. Smaller cities, less people and still riots. Enough of your excuses, you've gone through Europe, America and now Australia. Can't wait till you start on Asia, South America and Africa!

Have you ever been in a riot? It’s chaotic, but there's more to it, there's a starling murmuration predator avoidance to it. There’s an edge to it, a mix of overconfidence, testosterone, and immature male bravado. The sheer numbers make people feel invincible, hidden in the crowd, emboldened by the collective energy. Then there's the theft opportunities, little rats robbing all around them.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123147203#Comment_123147203

Some won't care if they have guns but others will. Taking away police firearms is madness. We have been lucky here to get away with an unarmed force for so long but circumstances have changed and will probably change further.

saabsaab

In Dublin especially and maybe other cities we need proper riot squads ready to deploy at the first sign of trouble. A squad of 20 -30 well equipped Gardai with an armoured truck and water cannon.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123147212#Comment_123147212

Well, that's a matter of opinion, it's subjective. You're a panicker, you proved that with your carry on over covid and you were wrong. A few hours ago you thought Dublin was the only small city in the world that had riots and you were wrong again.

But that's ok. For every one of you, there's ten of me… calm is restored. We're actually doing ok here in Ireland with our unarmed police and our armed emergency response units. We just need more investment in the capital, more police presence, more money reinvested, a transit police force, maybe a metro police unit for the city.

What you need to do is head in to the Cobblestone on a Friday and check out Tom Mulligan & Simon McBride in their Friday evening seisiún. You'll thank me for that.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123147233#Comment_123147233

You have your head in the sand. Dublin for its size has much too much public disorder. I was right during Covid and my early calls on it were much more accurate that those who said it was going to be fine and wouldn't come here. 6,000 dead hardly panic.

Anyway not having armed Gardai is not going to stop crime getting worse.

Get Real

Policing is very one part of the many moving parts and the new minister was on Pat Kenny speaking on increasing numbers.

I'd also like to know his plan for the courts and prisons too. There's no point focussing solely on one part of a system when it is entirely dependent on other parts of the same system.

 16year old assaults Garda, suspended sentence: https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/suspended-sentence-for-teen-guilty-of-giving-garda-awful-hiding-1091652.html

 17 year old mugs someone in templebar, suspended sentence https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/youth-17-who-viciously-mugged-14816890

 youth involved in that viral/infamous Dart attack,. All over media about lawlessness, no jail time. https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2022/07/26/boy-who-pushed-bike-at-girl-causing-her-to-fall-off-dart-platform-to-avoid-detention/

 19year old involved in throwing boiling water over a woman, no jail time.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/teenager-avoids-jail-for-role-in-tying-up-and-scalding-woman-with-boiling-water-1429901.html

Man with 40 previous convictions in unprovoked attack in Dublin pub, no jail time

https://m.sundayworld.com/crime/courts/tommy-doran-and-jamie-griffin-duo-spared-jail-over-unprovoked-attack-in-dublin-pub/a46709830.html

Teenage boy recently joyriding around, driving wrong way up M50, in a stolen car, brought to court. Bail objections made, no room for him in Oberstown so released on bail. You telling me he's not laughing and at serious risk of causing another victim or several.

https://www.thejournal.ie/teen-stolen-car-m50-dublin-6610719-Jan2025/

High profile case in December where those two Gardai attacked in Temple bar. One of the men? Oh, Gardai arrested and prosecuted him in 2020 for robbing an innocent tourist in guess where...templebar

https://dublinpeople.com/news/dublin/articles/2021/03/11/robber-who-was-apprehended-by-an-off-duty-garda-has-been-jailed-for-four-years/?amp=1

The problem is, these people can be caught, and prosecuted. But there is absolutely no way of preventing them committing further crime. We can have more guards all we want.

If fellas are getting bail for rallying a stolen car down a motorway, despite guards objecting to bail, the idea that more local, annoying issues such as young lads standing around, throwing pebbles at passersby and calling them racist words for example, would be dealt with sufficiently by the courts, is laughable.

I'm not some "lock them all up for life" type. But it is a fact, that if people were in prison 1) the type of person with 50-500 previous convictions simply wouldn't have gained all the extra previous convictions

2) there would not be a sense of being able to do whatever you want, "I can do X and don't go to prison or am released on bail, therefore I'll do X tomorrow.

3)the same people, wouldn't be constantly dealt with by Gardai and come across again, and again, and again. Leading to further victims and further analysis of how Dublin has gone to the dogs.

Double the budget for services in prisons even. Throw education, trades, counselling, sports, hobbies. Courses. Whatever. Make it comfortable I'd even say. The deprivation of liberty is the punishment in itself. But crime from repeat offenders and young people would fall imo. At least the State can say they've thrown every possible avenue or opportunity at someone to grasp while they're in there.

What blatantly doesn't work, is the countless examples of the headlines above, and the many other 100s for every one of those there is. I think that's for fear of being criticised as too harsh or Draconian. But the whole system needs an overhaul. Not just drilling in to one part and no real focus on all the others. It's system involving sections that are entirely interdependent.

Gloomtastic!

I heard yer man on Pat Kenny yesterday. Once again questions fobbed off with ‘I have a report on my desk’. Never a follow up question. How long’s it been sitting there and how long will it sit there before you actually do something?

Inertia. That’s all the civil service want. Anything for any easy life.

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123147135#Comment_123147135

You should look up some footage of the Aussie riots on YouTube. Despite the cops having firearms they don't use them. It's very rare for cops to use firearms in riots. Beanbag rounds and rubber bullets have been used in the past but have become less common as they can be lethal. Arming the AGS will not prevent riots or help them control riots.

Dublin and Ireland definitely need more police and more prisons. That will have more of an effect on public order offences than arming every cop.