Legality of charge to return passport.

Coldoutside

Can I be charged to get my passport back.

Last night I flew in from the UK. I left my passport in the baggage area.

Drove home to Kildare, went to bed.

Got a call around 10 am this morning from the airport police saying "Hey, we have your passport. Here is a ref number. Come up and get it".

I was off today, so no problem driving back up.

Went to the airport police office, they told me they had my passport. But I would need to pay a ten euro charge to get it back.

WTF is the deal with that. To be fair, I did lose it and didnt notice.

I appreciate them finding it and contacting me.

But what is this sh1t about charging me to get it back.

I paid it in the end.

But how is legal to charge me to get my passport returned.

Are they not legally obligared to return it to.

dxhound2005

Listed as a Handling Charge.

https://www.dublinairport.com/at-the-airport/help-and-support/lost-property/view-lost-property

• There is a €10 handling charge payable for each lost item returned to its owner. The handling charge can only be paid by contactless payment. An item may be posted to its owner for an additional cost. 

Gregor Samsa

https://www.dublinairport.com/at-the-airport/help-and-support/lost-property

There is a €10 handling charge payable for each lost item returned to its owner. The handling charge can only be paid by contactless payment

if you suspect that it’s not legal, you should report it to the Airport Police.

Coldoutside

Thanks.

It wasnt explained to me as a handling charge. Just that I had to pay it if I wanted it returned.

I appreciate it is only ten euros and much cheaper then ordering a replacement.

But I were a more stubborn person and refused to pay the charge.

What happens next, are they obliged to return it to me.

Are they required to destory it, or return it to DFA.

What are the legalities of all this.

Coldoutside

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121484717#Comment_121484717

funny guy

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121484727#Comment_121484727

It was discussed in the Legal forum back in 2014, when the fee was €6. I see that there are 68 male passports listed on the Airport site for about the last 3 months.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2057256066/charging-to-return-lost-property

con___manx1

millions of people are going through that airport every year.

I'd say the amount of stuff lost is astronomical.

The airport more than likely have staff that some of there dutys are to sort stuff out like lost property.

The 10 euro charge is to cover the cost of paying these staff.

Cheaper than getting a new passport all the same. I'd just be happy to get it back.

dxhound2005

Somebody left their socks behind.

Gregor Samsa

According to the Dublin Airport Bylaws: https://www.dublinairport.com/docs/default-source/at-the-airport/airport-bye-laws.pdf?sfvrsn=d6b1f108_2

Part II

6. 6.1 Each of the following is hereby prohibited:

(...)

(22) leaving baggage, goods or property unattended;

and

Part I

Liability for expenditure incurred as a result of contravention of Bye-Laws

5. Any person who contravenes any of these Bye-Laws shall be liable to the airport authority for any expenditure incurred by or on behalf of the airport authority as a result of the contravention, without prejudice to any fine so imposed, and such expenditure may be recoverable by the airport authority as a simple contract debt in any court of competent jurisdiction.

You contravened the bylaws in leaving your passport unattended on airport property. They incurred an expense in retrieving it, storing it, contacting you and returning it to you. They value that expense at €10.

All legal and above board.

Coldoutside

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121484758#Comment_121484758

Thank you.

bobbyD1978

It's not their property at the end of the day and the gardai dont charge a fee afterall. If you find something you cannot keep it or demand money to release the item nor did the owner freely enter into any agreement so the terms and conditions are irelevant in my opinion.

A complaint to consumer affairs might resolve the question

Coldoutside

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121484809#Comment_121484809

My wife lost hers transiting through Shipol. She got an email from the lost property office in Schipol and was able to collect it (fee free) before catching her connecting flight.

I understand charging to return a laptop, tablet, mp3 player etc. But a passport, just seems sh1tty.

I mean it remains the property of the DFA.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121484809#Comment_121484809

You agreed to the airport bye laws by flying

Str8outtaWuhan

"The handling charge can only be paid by contactless payment", this could be challenged as it discrimates against those who could legally not have a bank account e.g undocumented or illegals.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121484822#Comment_121484822

There's no legal requirement to take cash for anything except settlement of a debt. That might be an approach to challenge on, your one would not be.

Coldoutside

Are the airport police required to return Irish passports to DFA after a set time.

If so, what happens when they return it. Could I have just asked DFA for the passport back.

Or would they still need to issue a new one.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121484835#Comment_121484835

DFA would cancel it and charge you for an new one. They have no idea where a returned passport has been so have a very good reason to cancel it.

HildaOgdenx

Mod - Moved to Legal Discussion.

Local charter now applies.

bobbyD1978

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121484821#Comment_121484821

Which bye law?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121484850#Comment_121484850

The one quoted on this thread that provides the legal basis for the charge

bobbyD1978

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121484856#Comment_121484856

The one that states

"such expenditure may be recoverable by the airport authority as a simple contract debt in any court of competent jurisdiction."?

That is not what occurring here and bye laws dont supercede statute. Now I'm not suggesting by picking up lost property its theft (good faith and all). but willfully refusing to return it without without claiming reward? That's not so obvious

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121484822#Comment_121484822

Pretty sure undocumented wouldn't have a passport....

fritzelly

10 euro is a small price to pay instead of them contacting the DFA to say a passport was found and it being immediately cancelled and you then having to apply for a new passport and a marker for a lost passport against you.

Coldoutside

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121484936#Comment_121484936

No one is arguing that ten euros is a cheaper alternative to ordering a new passport. But passports are funny things. I belive its a criminal offence to hold onto someone passport in the UK. So a situation like this could not occure there.

Wait, what a marker for a lost passport against me? What is this? Am I only allowed to lose my passport a set number of times?

Strumms

I was surprised to read this but according to the Dublin Airport website there is a €10 fee…

• There is a €10 handling charge payable for each lost item returned to its owner. The handling charge can only be paid by contactless payment. An item may be posted to its owner for an additional cost. 

I presume it’s because of the volume of stuff and the time / man hours and other costs taken to process, photograph it, store it and put it on the website etc as well as to take calls and deal with the public directly…

Tens of thousands of people use the airport every day, departing and arriving and connecting…

suppose they feel it’s fairer to pass the cost on to people who lost items than add it to general airline / passenger charges, which is probably fair… it costs only the people they are holding stuff for…

Contactless just suits them unfortunately.

legally ? It’s a strange one, it doesn’t seem fair and above board but….

if you visited me , left your phone behind, would I be entitled to hold onto it until you make a contactless payment ?

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121484976#Comment_121484976

Wait, what a marker for a lost passport against me? What is this? Am I only allowed to lose my passport a set number of times?

It's explained here: https://www.dfa.ie/passports/lost-stolen-damaged/

We may restrict the validity of your next passport. Losing two or more passports may mean you do not get a full 10 year passport. You may get a new passport valid for somewhere between 1 and 10 years. This will depend on how many passports you have lost or had stolen over the last 10 years.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121484976#Comment_121484976

If you lose 2 passports you may not be issued a 10 year one as a replacement. Depending on how many you have lost, you may only get a one year passport.

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121484976#Comment_121484976

As explained above - lose 2 passports and you will normally be issued with a 2 year passport to prove you can look after your passport then you can apply for a 10 year one.

By all accounts the airport should have notified the DFA when it was found since it is their property - who is to know if it wasn't copied, used fraudulently etc

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121484886#Comment_121484886

There is an express power in the State Airports Act 2004 s. 15(3) for an airport authority to make bye-laws providing for, among other things, . . .

". . . the safe custody and re-delivery or disposal of any property found in the airport or in any aircraft or vehicle therein, the fixing of the charges to be made in respect of such safe custody or re-delivery . . ."

The thing is, the power to fix charges doesn't seem to have been exercised. I don't see anything in the 2014 bye-laws that fixes a charge of €10 for the return of lost property. Instead, we have bye-law 44(8):

Any goods or property found within an airport shall be handed over to an authorised officer.

What this means, I think, is that the bye-laws could, but don't, provide for the airport authority to operate (and charge for) its own lost property service; they just provide for lost property to be handed over to "authorised officers".

"Authorised officer" is defined in the legislation. It can mean (a) a member of the Garda Siochana or (b) a person authorised to perform functions under the Airports and Aviation Acts 1936 to 2014 — i.e. a member of the Airport Police Service.

So, is there a legal authority for the Airport Police Service to charge €10 for handling and returning lost property? The bye-laws, as noted, don't provide it but there may be authority buried somewhere in the Airports and Aviation Acts 1936 to 2014 (which are badly in need of consolidation). Reading those Acts to establish whether there is a statutory basis for the practice is left as an exercise for the student.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121484809#Comment_121484809

Maybe prosecute the OP for littering then?

This thread is nuts. They could throw everything a bin or charge a non nail €10 fee for providing a service to people.

Some people are never happy.

bobbyD1978

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121486128#Comment_121486128

It's not littering to forget something. It's littering to deliberately discard it.

I never said the charge was unfair, I questioned its legality to keep someone's property pending payment. You're mechanic can't keep your car waiting for you to pay for something you never asked for or a repair you never authorised can they?

In this case, it seems the correct system should be via the courts and not a mandatory fee at the lost property office.

Peregrinus

I don't know about the courts. It would be massively inefficient, and a huge waste of public money and resources, for lost property to have to be returned through the courts.

You've "questioned its legality to keep someone's property pending payment", but this overlooks the fact that the passport is not the OP's property - it belongs to the Minister for Foreign Affairs. It says so right there on page 1. If the claim is that the owner of property is entitled to recover it from the finder without having to pay any charge, a passport would not be a good test case (unless it was the Minister seeking to recover it).

There's no doubt that the authority could make bye-laws imposing a charge for the recovery of lost items; there's an express authority in the Act for that. Even in relations to items that people own — i.e. not passports — there's no general rule of law that requires a finder always to return the property without any kind of reward or payment. There's a whole slew of laws on bailment (property belongs to A is in the custody of B, no contract provides for this) and there are lots of circumstances in which B can have a claim to be compensated for his trouble in taking care of A's property. "Lost property" facilities are a classic case.

So the issue here is whether the statutory authority to make bye-laws for lost property charges is a problem for the airport authority. If there were no provision of that kind in the act, they could make a reasonable charge on ordinary principles of bailment. But there's an argument that, since the Oireachtas clearly contemplated that bye-laws would provide for this, this overrides the common law rule and they can't charge fees unless and until the bye-laws are made.

Witcher

This is the type of thing now that will lead to them automatically forwarding it to the DFA for filing in the shredder.

'No, no some lad was moaning about the fee...so now..no fee and no passport either'

Automan

Thank you're lucky stars you did not leave it on an aer lingus plane, they use a crowd called WeReturnIt for lost property, they charge 31 euros to return your passport, you cant even collect it as they dont allow collection it has to be shipped to you.

A friend of mine left there phone on an aer lingus plane and had to pay 43 euros to get it back, they asked if they could collect it from the airport but were told they could not collect it they had to wait for it to be delivered.

https://wereturnit.com/

amdublin

I guess someone has to administer Lost & Found property. It costs money to mind and return your property. Someone has to pay for it, why wouldn't it be the person who lost the object.

Does it matter what the object is? Still has the overhead to manage it.

I guess the alternative is that anything "found" is classed as rubbish and thrown in trash and no charge, and no return. Would you prefer that??

Or would you prefer someone collects it, minds it, and is there in the office to hand it to you for the charge of $10?

I know what I would prefer!

Big Gerry

It may be "legal" but it sounds like a really scummy thing to do to hold someone to ransom like that.

But I wouldn't expect any better from an outfit that want to charge people for stopping outside the airport to drop people off.

I wonder if someone left their wallet/phone in a pub or restaurant would the establishment be allowed to pull the same scam to charge people to get their stuff back ?

Big Gerry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121520090#Comment_121520090

I would have thought that kind of thing goes with running an airport.

It would be like if someone left their jacket in a bar and then come back the next day looking for it and the barman says you have to pay 20 quid to get the jacket back.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524743#Comment_121524743

Plenty of nightclubs do charge. As did CIE once upon a time, not sure about now

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524743#Comment_121524743

Not quite the same. In this case the airport authorities found his passport, tracked him down, found his contact details and got in tough to let him know and invite him to recover the passport. If you set up a system like that, it takes resources and therefore costs money to run. Who should pay that money, if not the people who benefit from the system?

Big Gerry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525089#Comment_121525089

Of course it costs money to run but its one of those costs of doing business like having toilets etc in the airport.

I just think its really scummy to charge people to get their stuff back.

What if you dropped your phone and I found it should I be able to charge you 50 euro to return your phone ?

Big Gerry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525071#Comment_121525071

I think you're talking about cloakrooms not lost property.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121528068#Comment_121528068

No, I'm not.

elperello

If I mislaid something in the airport and got it back safe and sound I would consider €10 a reasonable fee for keeping and returning it.

Having said that it might be better from a PR point of view to add a tiny fraction to the charges every passenger pays and use that to fund the lost property service.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121528113#Comment_121528113

The passenger charges are controlled by a third party (CAR/IAA) so that isn't possible. They're also exceptionally low for a large airport - from 2.10 to 12.90 depending on type of passenger and time of year; so there isn't much meat on the bones to begin with.

Heathrow's are £31, Amsterdam €9-22 depending on type and so on.

chrisd2019

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058326562/legality-of-charge-to-return-passport

Assuming it is an Irish passport, the 10E fee is much less than paying to get it replaced at the passport office.

You should feel lucky it was found and you contacted rather than it sent to the DFA where it would be cancelled.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121528127#Comment_121528127

Perhaps it would be possible for the DAA to persuade CAR/IAA that it would be a good idea.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121528149#Comment_121528149

You'd have a better chance of winning the Euromillions.

chrisd2019

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121484835#Comment_121484835

DFA staff will record it as lost and cancel it. It will then show on the record when the person applied for a new passport.

It should be noted that though the person pays for the Passport, it officially belongs to the Minister for Foreign Affairs!

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121528157#Comment_121528157

I don't buy the tickets so I'd have a better chance of pretty much anything else🙂

Like I said personally I'd be glad to get my property back and pay the fee.

But it would be a nice touch in Ireland of the Welcomes to reunite travellers with their stuff without charge.

amdublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121524712#Comment_121524712

A lot of nightclubs have a precise time to come in the next day e.g. between 11am-2pm. they have to resource for this etc. I don't think it is unreasonable for them to charge for that service for Lost Property, no

Big Gerry

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121528113#Comment_121528113

I believe that's how it worked in the past if a suitcase went missing.