RTE Investigates: Irish Planning Extortion

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121454367#Comment_121454367

Yes they can there in little or no oversight on who and what's considered a NGO

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121454603#Comment_121454603

Well if anyone did plan it it was definitely the most uncunning cunning plan in history.

Dr Turk Turkelton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121454610#Comment_121454610

North County Dublin seaside towns must have a few of these people so.

Kaisr Sose

I will be tuning in tonight...

The take away for me was the one line response to the right of reply sent to them by RTE " ....neither of the parties ..... has done anything unlawful "

Just because you can do something , does not mean you should...

I am not sure if that defence would hold up if the objections are spurious or deliberately made to achieve an outcome that would not arise in the absence of the objection (namely financial gain).

It reminds me of the line about tax evasion and tax avoidance. The former is illegal, but the latter, while legal, can go too far and cross the line to become illegal.

The reference to the farmer (Thomas Reid) objecting to the compulsory purchase of some or all of his small land holding, which adjacent to Intel, is not the same. He has a right to protect his family farm from any CPO, and some of the tacttics deployed against him by state agencies supporting Intel's development was David and Goliath stuff.

It's not fair or right to align what he was doing alongside what these two brothers are doing. They are poles apart, as is the distance of each from what was being ojected to. In one case mentioned for tonight's progrsmme, one of the two brothers was 250km from the site subject to their objection, and the other was 270km. Whereas Thomas Reid lived on the land subject to the CPO./planning issues.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121454277#Comment_121454277

Is that the guy whose land they were trying to illegally grab? Or someone else?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121454408#Comment_121454408

Hopefully the new planning bill can sort this all out. Serial and nuisance objections need to be weeded out of the system. Running off to the courts when one loses an appeal within the planning system needs to be looked at as well. Serial objectors weaponise the delays inherent in the courts system in an attempt to force the developer to quit IMO.

riddles

The only thing FF and FG can properly plan is a good planning diddle.

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121454651#Comment_121454651

That's him, see my post above.

StormForce13

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121454651#Comment_121454651

For the record, Intel weren't trying to compulsorily acquire his farm, that was the IDA (although it was clear that they were trying to obtain it for Intel). Tom Reid won that case in the Supreme Court and rightly so.

Unfortunately, after that great win, he lost the run of himself and started to lodge a succession of appeals against Intel, most, if not all, of which he has lost. The result has been significant delays in Intel's expansion plans which has led to decisions being taken by its Board to build new factories in other countries.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121454657#Comment_121454657

Yes, let's find a way to do all that without putting access to justice in the planning system beyond the reach of ordinary people.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121454975#Comment_121454975

I’m not talking about ordinary people but nuisance objecters. You do realise theres a problem here right?

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121454990#Comment_121454990

Of course.

Do I need to remind you that your original solution was to charge €5k to make a planning objection.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455000#Comment_121455000

Yes, but if you want to have people to have access to the courts it's gonna cost them alot more than 5k, especially if they make the process a long one within the courts system. So what do you want: stay within the planning system and so cut the potential cost to a person, or head to the courts where it will inevitably cost more. You did base your original argument on cost after all.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455037#Comment_121455037

You wanted to charge €5k for someone to object to a planning permission.

I proved to you that was a non starter.

You suggested some reforms to the system.

I agreed with those subject to maintaining reasonable access for all.

Now you are going on about court cases which is a different matter altogether.

Once you go to the courts you are in a different system with an entirely different set of rules and of course costs.

rdhma

It should explicitly be a criminal offence to demand or to offer money in relation to a planning application. Won't affect any genuine objector.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455086#Comment_121455086

I had mentioned the courts before, which you objected to on the grounds of access or lack of it. But I find that a bit theoretical in nature since you well know that cost will deter many from going that route especially if related to a planning dispute. If your pockets are deep enough you'll end up in the High Court or the Supreme Court eventiually. And no person of ordinary means can afford that IMO. So my original question still remains: how to keep the nuisance objector, as far as is possible, from gaming the system to their advantage.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455179#Comment_121455179

I didn't discuss the courts with you until the last post.

I agree court costs are high.

We need to find a way to allow access to the planning system for genuine objectors while minimising the influence of the chancers.

Got to go now programme starting.

NSAman

So its not illegal in Irish planning to ask for money to make issues "disappear"?

Surely and I am no expert (obviously) this is fraud/extortion?

If this is not illegal, there is no hope left for planning in Ireland

Spanish Eyes

"Proper" NGOs that are taxpayer subsidised, (and there are many of them) should be given a distinguishable title. "Government Funded Organisation" for example. But the resulting acronym could be BAAAD Language. Go F O.

Anyone think of a better one? Just so we know which organisations are self funded/charitable, and those that are wholly or partly taxpayer funded? Every one of them should have this description after their organisational name, similar to PLC or DAC or whatever they use now.

Might be enlightening for many of us also to see exactly who is doing what at our expense.

expectationlost

it would be simple extortion, provable in court

expectationlost

I wouldn't be surprised if John Callaghan was video this too...

bigroad

So is this legal or have the Guards been notified.looks very much like an act of extortion.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121454416#Comment_121454416

Yes they can: an NGO is just an organisation that is not owned by the government. So every business (except sole-traders), every sports club, every church, every lobby group is a NGO.

Some NGOs do charitable work and get government subsidies for it. Some don't.

ednwireland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455415#Comment_121455415

he's invoiced the developer for services and that invoice was paid.

don't know how as he's making threats to derail a development this can be picked up by the garda

beeker1

A prominent Dublin BARRISTER , was exposed several months ago , but nothing has come before the courts , its disgusting !

Extortion, plain & simple. The evidence is written all over this program. State needs to prosecute.

mf240

Hes lucky none of the meetings were upstairs.

Northernlily

God lads this is **** desperate. I feel like our Government (successive Govts) have really created the conditions for this behaviour to thrive through things such as a lack of technology investment and unsupervised state bodies. Absolutely no fear of legal repurcussions either.

We need to wake the **** up. There is a desperate housing crisis and this **** going on. They are not the only ones.

bigroad

You would wonder what the Callaghan's income tax situation is from all these payments.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455209#Comment_121455209

I mentioned the courts in post #37 to which you responded in post #41. Re the programme itself: jaw dropping stuff. Also reinforces what I said earlier about nuisance objectors weaponising ineffiencies, ie delays, in the system to heap pressure on developers to give way.