Means Test for dependant on Contributory pension

Gael23

My quite elderly grandparents have received a letter advising that the adult dependant portion of their state contributory pension is to be subjected to a means test. They have a small occupational pension but they have substantial savings.

What can we do to fight this?

Dempo1

You can't fight a decision to means test, you might be able to appeal a means test decision but substantial savings could be an issue depending on the amount & any income including occupational pension will be means tested

Gael23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429865#Comment_121429865

Can the reasoning of why now after 22 years of receiving green pension be questioned?

They have savings of around 200k but a small income

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429901#Comment_121429901

From what your OP says , it's the adult Dependent they are seeking to means test so yes would be my guess.

Gael23

Yes it’s the adult dependant portion in question. My grandmother left employment on marriage in 1966 as per the custom at the time so she has no PRSI in her own right

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121430000#Comment_121430000

It's astonishing they've waited 22 years to means test her. I'd certainly talk to Citizens information ASAP

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121430021#Comment_121430021

There may have been less than full disclosure at time of application, or lack of informing of changes in financial circumstances.

The fact that Revenue are embedded in SW offices now and the bank information they can get under AML suggest that maybe they have been advised of the 200k

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121430043#Comment_121430043

It's a possibility but it's unlikely dependent adults bank details would have been requested 22 years ago

Gael23

A large chunk of the money is from moving to a smaller home 2 years ago

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121430211#Comment_121430211

That should be exempt hopefully 🤞

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058324845/means-test-for-dependant-on-contributory-pension

OP the adult dependent portion of your grandfathers state pension has been means tested for at least 25 years now and when your grandparents were awarded the payment they were notified that they, by law, had to notify the department of any “change in circumstances”.

If they neglected to inform the dept of the private pension and the sale of the house then they are on the wrong foot here right from the start so any talk of fighting “this” can go out the window.

The fact that they are elderly is neither here nor there. The fact that they are being reviewed after 22 years is neither here nor there.

If your grandmother has been in receipt of money that she wasn’t entitled to then it will all have to be repaid to the state.

SW don’t have any choice in this. It’s simply the law. My advice is to totally co operate to the nth degree here. In some circumstances some of the proceeds of the sale of the house can be disregarded but if I was honest it doesn’t appear that it applies in this case.

There’s nothing to worry about as long as they approach this in a timely manner with a cards on the table attitude.

Gael23

It will reduce their income by €178 per week so there’s a lot to worry about.

Looking at the rules the exemption appears to only apply to the non contributory pension.

Gael23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121430277#Comment_121430277

From what I can see it’s only exempt if you are on a non contributory pension

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121431133#Comment_121431133

If the funds are from the sale of home, I believe exempt 🤔

Gael23

We’re going to get some proper financial advice before replying. Something I’m wondering would it be financially prudent for them to offload some of the money now rather than leave it in their will. Their savings add €400 per week to the means test.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432693#Comment_121432693

I think it's very wise to seek independent financial advice & possibly talk to Citizens information.

Keep in mind, there maybe be a required date to respond to the means test request

gipi

Offloading money may not change the outcome of a SW means test. If SW decide that a person is giving away money to avoid a means test, they may base their means assessment to include the money given away.

The HSE do similar for fair deal assessment, they will include assets disposed of up to 5 years prior to application.

hawthorne

There should be absolutely no problem here under the following conditions:

1. The husband has a contributory pension.
2. The sold house and all money from the proceedings of the sale is owned by the husband.
3. There is no joint bank account- only one or more bank accounts in the husbands name only.

That way any means test for the wife should show zero income or zero means as in a means test for a QA all income or means by the husband is ignored!

StormForce13

Would the proceeds from the sale of the house not fall under the signed undertaking in the Pension Application form that:

I undertake to immediately advise the Department of any change in the circumstances of me or my spouse, civil partner or cohabitant which may affect my continued entitlement?

(I'm assuming here that neither the pensioner nor the QA bothered to inform the Department about the windfall. Apologies if I'm wrong.)

KAMG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058324845/means-test-for-dependant-on-contributory-pension

Fight this? I'd stop with this sort of guff first of all anyway. It has always been means tested. If the means are too high, all they had to do was spent/give away the money and continues to receive the top up.

Why should your grandparents be treated any differently to anyone else?

KAMG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432789#Comment_121432789

It won't change the past. There will likely be a large repayments sought by Social Welfare. However, offloading money, which is a goof way to put it, will allow the adult dependent top up to be paid into the future. Assuming of course, that the couple stay below the means.

The main thing I would advise is to simply put the weekly pension from now on, into an account of the person entitled to the state pension in their own right. They could have a million in an account in their own name and it wouldn't make a difference!

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432693#Comment_121432693

If they give money away to relatives they will have “deprived themselves of an asset” and SW will be even more involved. Be very careful who you go to for financial advice as in my long experience accountants don’t know the vagaries of the SW system at all but won’t admit that.

Once again my best advice to you is to just lay all their cards on the table and let due process happen.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432789#Comment_121432789

They actually will include the “given away” money in the means test as they will assume, with good reason, that the money has been “given away” to avoid the means test and will be “given back” as soon as the dust settles.

StormForce13

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121432786#Comment_121432786

it's not a request, it's a notification!

Social Welfare don't request permission from welfare recipients to carry out a means test! They just tell you that they're going to do it!

Gael23

Is there a

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433102#Comment_121433102

The house actually was only in his name, that’s how it was done in the 1960s.But I’m pretty sure they have joint bank accounts to ensure in the event of one of their death the other has access.

Would their calculated means be halved being a couple?

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121435028#Comment_121435028

I didn't say DSP requested anything.

I was simply saying there's normally a time frame to respond or send back forms. How do you think they'll do a means test, consult a clairvoyant 🙄

Information on means will have to be supplied in order to complete a means test, it's not guess work

Gael23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121435662#Comment_121435662

How do I find out the formula used for calculating their means, in particular what capital is disregarded?

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121435678#Comment_121435678

Citizens information is a good place to look. I spotted the attached which might be relevant to the situation. Hope this helps but I'm not sure how they'll means test in this situation.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social-welfare/irish-social-welfare-system/means-test-for-social-welfare-payments/means-test/#d8a01c

hawthorne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121435613#Comment_121435613

I understand the reason for having joint accounts- it makes sense in case of the death of one partner. Unfortunately, it looks like a major mistake when it comes to a situation like we are told about here.

Joint accounts means that the wife owns half of everything what is on the accounts. So the wife has loads of means which were not declared. In a means test half of everything on the joint accounts will be taken into acount- the other half will be seen as belonging to the husband and will be ignored. The wife can own up to 20000 Euros ( I am not sure about this figure- it could be less)- this will be disregarded as well.

gov.ie - Operational Guidelines: Means Assessment (www.gov.ie)

There is something about a sale of the house in that one as well.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121435678#Comment_121435678

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social-welfare/irish-social-welfare-system/means-test-for-social-welfare-payments/means-test/#b47a4c

Here you go.

StormForce13

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121435662#Comment_121435662

So when you wrote "the means test request" you didn't say "request"! 🙄 Gotchya, thanks for the clarification.

Dempo1

Your being pedantic and know full well what I meant. How about contributing something useful 🙄

Gael23

Would the result be halved for a couple?

hawthorne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437936#Comment_121437936

I think this was adressed already. SW will look at the joint accounts. All money will be added up. Then devided by two. One of the two halfs will be considered as your Granny's money. The first Euro 20000 of that half will be ignored, the rest will be seen as means owned by your Granny.

Check the links provided earlier- all in there.

No- the final result won't be halfed. Your Grandad's money was already taken out before the means test. The means test is done on your Grandmother's money only- your Grandad's payment is a non means tested payment.

Gael23

The disregard seems to be different for so many things. I know it’s 72000 for the over 70 medical card

hawthorne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438750#Comment_121438750

That figure is correct for a couple in a means test for a medical card. This thing is about a means test for a QA/NC pension. But you may might have just discovered the next problem....

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438750#Comment_121438750

Medical card is the HSE. Yes I agree though. One Dept disregards 20, the other 72. It’s a bit inconsistent.

StormForce13

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437845#Comment_121437845

There's nothing useful to contribute.

In a nutshell, the QA's means are above the level that makes her eligible for the dependant's pension and no amount of half-baked suggestions from you or anyone else is going to change that fact.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438979#Comment_121438979

Half Baked suggestions you say 🙄, what is it about trying to help others that offends people like you, who seem to use this site to be snide & petulant. OP ultimately will have to deal with this, all I and others have offered is guidence & perfectly reasonable suggestions.

You don't decide what I or others post

Gael23

This situation means their income will drop below the €36k threshold for a couple over 70 to pay income tax. Does that adjustment happen automatically or is there something needs to be done?

hawthorne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439717#Comment_121439717

SW will set the new rate of payment for your grandmother after the means test.

The new tax situation will be reflected in your grandparents next income declaration they have to make when it is due. It looks like there is even a positive side for your grandparents in this affair.

Gael23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439879#Comment_121439879

They will still be down a little over €100 per week, which is about 15% of their income . A little less during fuel allowance season.

JoChervil

Fuel allowance is means tested as well...

Gael23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121440260#Comment_121440260

Yes but the amounts are a lot higher, €50,000 of savings are disregarded and you can have income of €1000 per week for a couple

StormForce13

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439035#Comment_121439035

Few intelligent people would regard posting a link to an exclusion that doesn't apply to people receiving the State Contributory pension as a perfectly reasonable suggestion.

Next time, instead of firing off a succession of ill-informed, half-baked suggestions why not first read the relevant Social Welfare Operational Instruction(s) that apply - and then you can pontificate from an informed position to your heart's content.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121441579#Comment_121441579

Again you don't dictate what anyone posts here. The link is from Citizens information, Valid & deals with Means testing. If all you've to offer is insults, I suggest you find a Hobby.

Now move on with your petulance. You've clearly joined this forum to be belligerent, 30 posts in & you've still not managed to undersrand the rules.

The Continental Op

Can I ask a question about the means test which I've always wondered about but no one has ever mentioned?

Say you are assessed for means as having €100,000? What happens if over a period of time you spend that money or go out and buy a new car? Can you go back and just ask for another means test? I assume you are allowed to buy a new car if you are on means tested benefit and that you aren't expected to keep the money in the bank forever?

gipi

Yes, you can ask for a review of means, and spending of savings is allowed.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121444991#Comment_121444991

Absolutely. You can apply for non con pension again at any time. It would be a brand new application as they won’t keep your last application open for any more then a month.

Keep receipts. A new car. A new wall. Any home improvements. Went on holiday. Got the ditches cut. Giving generous presents to family and friends unless it’s a wedding present or something like that won’t be allowed. A fill of oil etc of course all fine.

If it all can be accounted for then it shouldn’t be any problem.

To get your head around non con pension or SW means testing I think it helps if you keep in mind what non con pension was intended for.

It was intended for people who for one reason or another found themselves at 66 with no income and not much savings and having made little or no PRSI contributions in their working lives.

Maybe you were in bad health. Maybe you were caring for someone or different people all your life. Maybe you were a stay at home parent with a large family.

But you need money to live every week so there is the non con pension.

Let’s be honest. If you have €100000 in the bank then you don’t need help every week to live. The idea that you should be able to get state money in order to be able to leave your children a large chunk of inheritance in your will is just crazy. But lots of Irish people think like that. Good luck.

Gael23

How far back does the means test look? The letter doesn’t make that clear,

Is there anything to stop them taking my grandmothers name off their bank accounts and then reapplying in the future saying she has nothing in her name, or put a few grand in a new account in her name

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121447399#Comment_121447399

When you open a bank account you give the bank your PPSN.

When you apply for a means tested SW payment, SW can see that you have accounts linked to your PPSN. So they ask you to send them 3 month statements of that account.

They will also ask them to send proof that the old bank account is closed. (They can see that they USED to have an account ).

So to be clear, if you advise your grandparents, in an effort to defraud the state, to close one bank account and open another, then all you will be doing is putting them to the bother of getting 3 month statements from the new accounts, and letters from other banks to say that they’ve closed accounts.

Gael…can I say…I’m quite concerned at this stage that you seem to be advising your grandparents and you don’t seem to realise that:

A. Trying to defraud the taxpayer is wrong.

B. Your grandparents can end up getting a court summons and a fine.

It may be that you are concerned that you aren’t going to get your inheritance if your grandmother doesn’t continue to get a payment from SW.

If your grandparents have a large amount of savings then your grandmother simply doesn’t NEED a payment for herself right now.

She can live very comfortably on her savings, can’t she?

Your grandfather is getting his pension commensurate with his lifetimes contributions. That’s perfectly correct.

But I’d really like to hear from you why it is you think that, despite them being very financially comfortable, they also need the taxpayer to give them extra, to the point where you are exploring avenues which would involve them actually breaking the law?