Dodgy Business Practice

Fylime

Hey guys,

Wanted to get people's opinions on the below:

My husband and I offered on a house and after a few weeks we got a call from the estate agent confirming it was between us and one other party. We increased our offer and received a text message asking us if we would go onto daft.ie to partake in a Private Treaty Bidding with the other party. Obviously I asked if the other party was countering?? I got back that, she, our estate agent was flying out on holidays and that the countering would just go back and fourth on email for days and the online bidding was transparent and fair plus much quicker. She would hand things over to a colleague. Online bids is not something we or the other couple wanted to do but we both agreed to it in the end. A few hours later we received a formal email from the estate agent with a link to open the private treaty bidding link and to submit our offer, this was on a Friday, and email stated bids will close at 5pm Monday.

Both parties submitted 1st bids on Fri/Sat, obviously not stupid enough to start actively bidding over the weekend bringing the price up, knowing that there was a 5pm close on the Monday.

Monday came and right enough at 16:51 we put in a higher bid and 4 mins later at 16:56 the other party did, we submitted our max bid ie what we wanted to pay for the house, at 16:59. No counter from the other party. We won and prepared to log off, anticipating a call from the estate agent.

To our shock, a bid came in at 17:03 from the other party.... I text the 'stand in' estate agent straight away asking her to stop it and panicked putting in another bid at 17:03. I thought there was a glitch or something with the system turning off, so better to be safe than sorry. Of course I'd argue that the bid prior to 5pm is what we pay. However, 9 mins go by and obviously we again thought we won but no... The estate agent let another bid go through from the other party at 17:12 ??? I rang the estate agent straight away and obviously lost it with her. She said " it wasn't a literal 5pm"??? "That all auction platforms allow a few mins" I said I'm out and hung up. She tried calling back twice. I did not pick up. I walked away because it was completely unethical what she was doing. We also felt that no matter what bid we put through, even if it went on for another hour, that she was ultimately going to decide who wins and at what price. Fair? Transparent? Ethical? Law breaking?

NOTE: this wasn't an auction.

The estate agent, by breaking the rules and ignoring the private treaty 5pm close essentially turned it into an online auction, allowing 'bidding extension windows' after the other partys last bid at 16:56 throughout and up until 5.30pm., with absolutely no rules whatsoever (standard practice in Ireland across auction platforms is 60 seconds - but this wasn't an auction)

Neither party received any communication prior to the deadline that she was extending the private treaty nor did she communicate any of the auction rules she was adhering to.

Who in there right mind would agree to an estate agent having control over turning off a private treaty bidding whenever it suits them. Surely that gives way for her to essentially choose the winning bid, the price and purchaser ie the party she wants to win??

Am I missing something?

Appreciate anyones expertise on the matter, please and thank you.

Kurooi

The estate agent is on the side of the seller, not you. They don't get to reject higher bids and piss away their clients money because of ethics.

Tow

You have learnt that estate agents are not to be trusted. Dealing with them will both break your hart and do your head in.

Fylime

Yes, I do know that. I have never trusted estate agents. Getting a formal communication from their office with the close time is all I need. The estate agent cannot choose the winner. There must be rules. Daft.ie is not an auction platform. Hence the close time., which was communicated to both parties. The estate agent broke the rules by not adhering to the deadline and essentially turned it into an auction. An auction with no rules whatsoever. All auctions must follow rules.

"The bidding rules should also prevent or minimize any fraudulent or malicious behavior, such as bid rigging and shill bidding. The bidding rules should be clearly communicated to the users before they join the auctions".

MrsBean

I have found with these online bidding platforms, that generally any bid submitted close to the deadline will extend the deadline for a few minutes to allow time for other bidders to counter. So your 16.59 bid likely extended the deadline by a few minutes, as did your 17.03. Was there a countdown timer visible after you submitted your bids and did it reset/extend? It goes on like this until someone reaches their limit and taps out. I know it's not nice but that it the way it's done. Otherwise everyone would submit their highest bid at 16.59 and the person with best internet connection or most accurate trigger finger would win, and not the highest bid which is just how it goes.

If you really want the house I would answer the phone to the estate agent, or call them yourself. The other bidder may have moved on, or might pull out in a few weeks, and you could still have a chance with the house. You may also end up dealing with the estate agent in the future on a different house so it can be worth keeping an open channel of communication should you need them.

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058317166/dodgy-business-practice

Can I ask how you know the other party was not notified. "Neither party received any communication prior to the deadline that she was extending the private treaty nor did she communicate any of the auction rules she was adhering to."

herbalplants

How do you even know the other "bidder" was a real person!

You may have bidding against yourself.

Fylime

I understand auction rules but this wasn't an auction. It was a private treaty bidding with a 5pm close that started 3 days prior.

If the estate agent wanted us to partake in an auction type scenario, the bidding time rules should have been communicated. Bidding rules govern how auctions operate.

"They should also prevent or minimize any fraudulent or malicious behavior, especially bid rigging. The rules should be clearly communicated to the users before they join the auctions"

This wasn't an auction. The private treaty was to close at 5pm.

PS it was the other party who put another bid in after 5pm at 17:03. Plus the estate agent allowed another 9 minute gap later on. Bid rigging??

Standard practice across auction platforms is 60 seconds, if a bid is submitted within 60 seconds of the close, another 60 seconds is allowed.

However, this is all irrelevant, because it wasn't an auction. The estate agent also stated it wasn't an auction when I caught her out on her allowing extra time after 5pm, with no rules followed.

Fylime

No counter timer/reset. Daft.ie don't facilitate auctions hence why a hard close of 5pm was communicated to both parties.

If there is no hard close, it allows the estate agent to stop the bidding when she wants, at what price and with who wins.

Fylime

If the other party had of submitted a bid that was above our max bid, say the day before or an hour before the close, we would not have bid any further and signed off.

Fylime

Unlawful behaviour more like.

con747

Either that or post building.

Fylime

What's post building? Thanks

chrisd2019

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058317166/dodgy-business-practice

Estate Agents have used various methods to get the most for the property for years, especially if a number of parties are interested. If you submitted your maximum bid at the official closing time, why did you continue bidding afterwards?

If you feel the EA did not act correctly, make a complaint to the appropriate regulatory body and let them investigate.

A final point, given the facts you outline, I myself would not take the property even if I was the higher bidder, as I wouldn't have any faith in the transaction progressing smoothly to close out. The EA is basically over complicating things.

Fylime

I mentioned above, that we panicked... Just thought there was a glitch or slight delay with her turning off the private treaty. The other party put another bid in at 17:03 first (there last bid was 16:56). They obviously seen it was not shut down and chanced another bid. It was just a small increase on our side. When there were no further bids we thought it was over then. Obviously we would fight that the bid prior to 5pm would be the the price we pay. Then 9 minutes later, whilst I was on the phone to the estate agent, the other party put in another bid.

Yes we are putting in a complaint but our solicitor was expecting a call from the estate agent confirming us the winners but he didn't receive it. He also had the email from the estate agent stating bids close at 5pm plus he seen the bidding process. He wrote a letter and sent it to the estate agent.

Fylime

I wouldn't go near the estate agent again even if they were selling my dream house. Completely unethical and unlawful activity.

If we win our case, dealings will be between our solicitor and the vendors solicitor. We do not have to deal with the estate agent again.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121211262#Comment_121211262

It's not remotely unlawful, unfortunately.

Like, the estate agent has one job - get the best selling price for the guy selling the house. Saying "we'll close the bidding at 5pm" doesn't legally oblige them to yank it at 4.59.59 pm, especially when bids are actively going up.

One question - how do you know the other couple involved didn't want to do the online bidding either?

Fylime

The estate agent told us.

It is unlawful to hold an auction without any rules and more importantly not communicating those rules. If there is no counter timer or reset button after the 5pm close... What? The estate agent chooses the winner? Just happens to turn off the bidding when the other party gets another bid at a time she chooses... A random 17:17???

All the way through our counters were within 60 seconds... You think allowing 9 minutes between a counter is fair........

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121211781#Comment_121211781

Absolutely nothing you've described is unlawful.

It wasn't an auction, it was a private treaty sale. The vendor could have told the estate agent to let the bidding run for another three days if they felt like it, or they could have closed it an hour early.

And the estate agent didn't choose the winner, you walked away. They gave you a chance to go again and you declined.

I'm sorry to be so blunt but you just lost out because you hit your limit and the other people didn't. How you ended up there is pretty academic. If you're serious about buying a house, you need to be prepared for these things.

Fylime

You clearly didn't read all of the information I provided in my first write up . It was already going on for 3 weeks through email.

It was agreed that the final two parties would log on to daft.ie and bid until 5pm Monday. What were the rules? Who in there right mind would agree to an estate agent having control over turning off a private treaty bidding whenever it suits them? All auction type platforms have rules so that this type of dodgy behaviour doesn't happen.

It was agreed between all parties that bidding would close at 5pm. Why are you saying the vendor could have asked for it to run for 3 extra days.??? Your not making sense. Our solicitor was involved and received the same communication as we did. The highest offer submitted my 5pm close Monday.

Fylime

It was a private treaty bid with a hard close of 5pm.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121211888#Comment_121211888

Again - you have not identified anything unlawful.

You put in a bid at 16.59, so essentially you think you should have won not by having the highest bid but by being in closest to 5.00pm - that was optimistic, to say the least. The other guys were always going to get a chance to counter, they took it and you declined to make any further bids.

It wasn't an auction, it's a form of bidding on a private treaty sale. The seller was not obliged to close the bidding at any given time, nor was he obliged to sell to the highest bidder.

Ask your solicitor tomorrow if you have any legal recourse, he'll tell you the exact same thing.

It sounds like a frustrating experience but that's all it was. Very few people get to buy a house without some difficulties.

Fylime

Fyi we didn't walk away because we couldn't pay anymore. We walked away because the estate agent wasn't following any timing rules.

Fylime

The estate agent set the rules not the seller??

Deadline/close 5pm. Those are the facts.

Our solicitor agrees with us.

If it was an auction, yes, the estate agent had every right to extend the bidding, if we put in a bid within 60 seconds of the close time, which we did. The other party should have been given the same chance. But to allow any amount of time in between bids doesn't happen on any auction type platform. There is always an open day/time and an end day/time, whether that's 3 days or 15 days.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121211947#Comment_121211947

Well, if this was a house you really wanted, then that was a poor call.

If the bidding had gone above your pre-determined maximum, per your OP, then maybe it was the right thing to do. But either way, it was your choice to drop out of the bidding.

Fylime

There were no rules. Why would we keep submitted higher bids, when the estate agent was going to decide when to turn off the treaty. Surely it should have been turned off when there were no bids after 9/10 mins from the previous counter bid.

No auctioneer, no counter timer, no reset button allows that Lenght of time.

Sarn

I agree it’s very frustrating, but you are picking an arbitrary 60 seconds from the final bid on other online auction sites. As others have mentioned there will always be extra time added to allow for the other party to respond to the last bid at the last second, especially on something worth a few 100k.

The alternative approach they could have picked was best and final offer. That would have avoided a his situation.

Fylime

Yes, it was supposed to be best and final by 5pm close. But the estate agent kept the bid open? Hence our confusion.

60 seconds is just standard practice across auction platforms in Ireland. It's not something we thought would be a discussion point. If it wasn't a hard 5pm close why communicate it, why not sat bids open at 5pm and communicate the timing rules that the estate agent was working to.

Fylime

Sorry meant to say - why not start bids opening at 5pm and communicate the timing rules the estate agent was working to.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121211898#Comment_121211898

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121211970#Comment_121211970

Private treaty bids do not have close times. Even if the estate agent said last bids by 5pm, if they receive a bid at 5:02 they have receive that bid and have a duty to pass the bid to their client

You keep saying its not an auction, but you also saying that they should have dropped the gravel on it at 5pm. Which is how an auction works.

Monday came and right enough at 16:51 we put in a higher bid and 4 mins later at 16:56 the other party did, we submitted our max bid ie what we wanted to pay for the house, at 16:59. 

The idea is that you both submit you max bids and it settles itself. It you don't submit slightly below max, it turns into tit-for-tat bidding.

I text the 'stand in' estate agent straight away asking her to stop it and panicked putting in another bid at 17:03. I thought there was a glitch or something with the system turning off, so better to be safe than sorry. 

I presume if this, higher than your max, after 5pm bid stood for you then you'd be content to buy the place. But you don't want to let their bid stand. Kind of hypocritical.

The reality is the other other buyer was willing to place 2 bids that were both above the max price you settled on (as also above your panic bid). In simple terms that means they outbid you, and not you're contrary. You've invented some sort of ethical obligation to close the bidding at 5pm. That's not how it works, this was not a auction where the biding window times out. It was a private treaty bid.

Fylime

It was a private treaty with two final parties, to have max and final offers in by 5pm close.

Fylime

I do not think any offer, whether it's higher than our max bid, should be accepted after 5pm.

I also didn't state that we didn't have the highest offer after 5pm.

Both parties were to have their best and final offer in by 5pm close, because the estate agent was flying out on holiday and didn't want it dragging out over the following week through email.

ForestFire

I don't know the legalities if the whole situation, but I do find it interesting that the EA rang you twice, when you already told them you were out, and the bidding was online anyway.....

Did the EA suddenly find themselves without any bidder, or maybe not even close to what this great plan was supposed to achieve for their client??

Is the house gone sale agreed of daft?

Why not get a distant friend to but in an impromptu inquiry on the house early in the week?

Fylime

It was best and final by 5pm close, because the estate agent was flying out and didn't want it dragging out over email for another week.

I also didn't state that we didn't have the highest offer in after 5pm. I don't think any offer price after 5pm should be paid.

TheHopeful

Sounds very unfair and very unprofessional op. I'd be curious to hear how this plays out so please keep us updated.

Fylime

I'm really not sure if I can be bothered persuing it further. Our solicitor asked our permission to send a letter to the estate agent as he agrees with us. We said fine.

It's a house at the end of the day, is it worth my energy, health and stress levels. I'll have a think about it.

Either way, I still don't think we or the other party should pay any price submitted after 5pm.

Sarn

Best and final would offer normally be a blind bid, to avoid and end situations such as this. The idea is to cut out the back and forth.

Fylime

When I asked the stand in estate agent why she extended the 5pm best and final, she was the one who mentioned Auctions. She said all auctions do, so she did. I said but it wasn't an auction. She got tongue tied.

Fylime

We actually thought it was going to be a blind bid but it seems anyone looking at daft.ie could see everything.

Former Former Former

It wasn't an auction, and it wasn't a blind bid (aka tender), it was a private treaty. As such, bidding continues until the seller says so and the seller can pick whichever bid/bidder he wants. No cut-off time, no obligation to sell to the highest bidder.

Your solicitor might agree it was a mess but I'll be very surprised if he agrees it was illegal and there's absolutely no way he'll advise you to take it any further.

Honestly, your best bet now is to ring the estate agent, say that things got a bit heated and if the winning bidder drops out, to give you a call.

Fylime

It wasn't what we agreed to or signed up for. It's hard for you to understand that because you haven't seen all the communications from them to us and our solicitor. Thanks for your input though, I appreciate it.

RichardAnd

Ethics and estate agents go together like oil and water. The behaviour that you have encountered is reprehensible, but anyone who's tried to buy a house in the last few years has probably encountered this. The 5pm "closing time" was not binding because it was not an auction. If the EA got another offer two weeks after going sale agreed, they likely would have put it to the owner.

Also, I'll just point out that these online bidding platforms do not turn a sale into an auction. In a real auction, a bid is binding. If one is using something like Auctionera, anyone can "bid" on a property and drive up the price with little to no oversight. The sad reality is that in the current market, this kind of thing is common. If you really want a house, you're going to have to deal with this at some point. I actually know of people who did go though this, bought the house and then told the EA that he was a c**t when they took the keys off him. I doubt that the agent lost sleep, mind you...

That's Ireland 2023.

antoinolachtnai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121212444#Comment_121212444

The problem is that all arrangements for this type of bidding are binding in honor only and should be understood as such. Unless there is a formal written contract, neither the agent nor the vendor (nor indeed the bidders) can be legally bound by anything. Legally, the agent has little choice but to hear a late bid and convey it to the seller.

This is not to say that the agent didn’t convey something different. We haven’t seen the correspondence as you say but I find it quite easy to believe that you were misled. But it’s not really anything worse than bad customer service. Try not to fall out with the agent over it, for the simple mercenary reason that they have the houses, and you need one.

Fylime

Yes, even Auctionera have rules however. Yes, the price can be driven up but they have timing rules so to prevent or minimize any fraudulent or malicious behavior.

I wouldn't deal with this estate agent again. Everything out of her mouth was a lie. There are plenty of other estate agents selling houses in the area. She has a very bad name for a reason.

bikeman1

The easiest way to understand is that the estate agent does not care, yes does not care whatsoever about the purchaser. They are solely acting for the seller and that's it. They have to get the highest price and will do whatever tactic (i.e. reopening a sales window) to achieve this for the seller.

There is no point in getting upset about this. That's how it works and you would be naive to think otherwise. In any property deal, you have to be prepared to walk away and take a cold view on things, even if you dream to live there forever. That's very hard to do, but it has to be done. I have heard of far worse stories than this. Let them know where you stand and move on.

Fylime

Yes, I have already moved on. Just not understanding her calling me after I dropped out plus the lengthly text messages telling me she's awake all night thinking about me.... Please. Guilt!!

Big Bag of Chips

The seller can accept or not any offer. If the offers are increasing the seller is unlikely to call a stop to it. The EA is an agent for the seller. Regardless of what she told you, she has no right to stop people bidding on a house at a particular time. The seller is paying her. They could rightly ask her why she is limiting the bids? THAT might be seen as her influencing who can buy the house.

Someone completely new could come in next Friday and make a higher offer on the house and the seller could accept that. It's just the way it is. You would have no right to say that bidding on the house ended the previous week and as such nobody else can bid.

Dishonest of the EA? Yes.

Illegal or anything you can do about it? No.

davo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121211262#Comment_121211262

There is nothing unlawful about it. Put on your big boy/girl pants and move on.

Fylime

I repeat. No one knows the communications we or our solicitor received. The seller wasn't involved. He asked the estate agent to get us to put our max offer in by 5pm. He couldn't decide between both parties as we both had proof of funds.

As I have said countless times, we have moved on. We walked away from an unethical estate agent.

No one should get away with this type of behaviour. There are rules in place so this malicious behavior doesn't occur.

Fylime

There is also a lot of background re the seller and rectification paperwork still to be completed... A four month wait. We and the other party were the only two to agree to wait. He gave his word he would not accept any other offers after max bid by 5pm or from any other parties in the future.

Maybe he will be just as bad as the estate agent but both parties agreed to same.

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213124#Comment_121213124

That actually reminds me of an anecdotal story of when my parents sold their hone in Dublin 3 in '97. There were three interested parties, and the EA and my parents opted to go for a "best offer" means of selling the house. Each of the parties made their offer, but the winner's offer was only something like 100 pounds above the next highest offer. My parents always suspected collusion, but there was no way to prove it.

The point is that EAs can and will act the maggot. I agree completely that it is repulsive, but regulating ethics is a difficult thing to do. In other industries, this kind of behaviour would earn someone a bad reputation, but in the property market, it is seemingly accepted.