An interesting article about a guy obsessed with conspiracy theories who got out.

ghostfacekilla

It gave me a lot more compassion and empathy towards those who end up in the rabbit holes, learning that they ultimately wish the world to be a better place by exposing wrongdoings, however the article further strengthens my earlier belief that conspiracy theorists have difficulty assessing information, and conducting research with a healthy degree of skepticism as opposed to it being an intelligence issue. The level of information we have to assess today which labels itself as news is huge, compared to the pre-internet era. I believe that education departments worldwide need to tweak the curriculum to teach students at all levels greater levels of critical analysis, or the world will be left with increasing numbers of citizens, unable to differentiate the true from the false which seems to be a fast growing threat to democracies in many previously stable states at this moment in time.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/oct/04/escape-from-the-rabbit-hole-the-conspiracy-theorist-who-abandoned-his-dangerous-beliefs

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058316779/an-interesting-article-about-a-guy-obsessed-with-conspiracy-theories-who-got-out

"When the 7/7 attacks took place in London in 2005, killing 52 people, Lee was online, searching with fellow truthers for evidence that the terror attack was orchestrated by the UK government. They examined footage of the attackers going to the train station in Luton and were made suspicious by the way railings appeared to slice through the leg of one of the attackers; they decided the image had been Photoshopped before being released by the police. Now he acknowledges that the glitches might simply have been the result of shaky CCTV technology rather than the work of cultist masterminds."

This is at the core of most conspiracy believers. They believe the conspiracy first. Then they search for anything, no matter how nonsensical which supports the belief and filter out everything that doesn't.

The "asking questions" is really just code for attacking the facts to discrediting them, in order to hint that a conspiracy took place.

The interest in detailing the conspiracy itself is often low or non-existent.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121198472#Comment_121198472

I think that it's assuming too much initiative to say that theorists go seeking these anomalies. Most don't and are repeating ones fed to them by conspiracy theory media.

moonage

So he saw the light and now believes everything he is told by the government and mainstream media? The only sources of truth!

I wonder what really happened. Perhaps they had some dirt on him or he was offered a lot of money to switch to the 'other side'.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121221817#Comment_121221817

That's not what he said nor is it what the article states.

You are ascribing a ridiculous position to him that he does not hold so you can dismiss the points made. That's very dishonest.

Not believing conspiracy theories, such as Qanon or 9/11 being fake does not mean that someone then believes everything the government says or that they and media are perfect.

What really happened is that he started to see the flaws and contradictions in conspiracy theory belief, and rather than plugging his ears and closing his mind to other ideas, he grew up.

There's nothing strange or outlandish about this, though it does seem to be a rarity.

It is however very outlandish to suggest that this person was bribed or threatened to change his mind by a shadowy conspiracy for which there is nothing to suggest it exists.

moonage

I feel sorry for the chap.

He's now engaging in conspiracy denial. He has abandoned healthy mistrust and critical thinking.

Maybe he got a knock on the head!

silliussoddius

3/10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121221848#Comment_121221848

Again not what he or the article said. Just more dishonest misrepresentaction.

Not believing in Qanon does not mean you lack critical thinking. It's the other way around.

You've changed your claim it seems.

Previously you were suggesting that he was part of a conspiracy to fake changing his mind.

Now you're claiming that the only explanation for why he might have stopped believing in conspiracy theories is brain damage.

That's insulting and a little silly.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121221817#Comment_121221817

He had extreme beliefs which he stopped believing because they made no sense

"

Brent Lee struggles to explain why he used to believe that a cabal of evil satanic paedophiles was working to establish a new world order. He pauses, looks sheepish, and says: “I cringe at all this now.”

For 15 years, Lee collected signs that so-called Illuminati overlords were controlling global events. He convinced himself that secret societies were running politics, banks, religious institutions and the entertainment industry, and that most terrorist attacks were actually government-organised ritual sacrifices."

Do you believe there is a cabal of even satanic paedophiles working to establish a new world order? No.

Does that mean you automatically accept every single thing a government minister or newspaper says? Of course not.

moonage

"His reasons for abandoning the 'truther' movement (truthers believe official accounts of big events are designed to conceal the truth from the public) are also hard to slot into a conventional worldview. Lee veers between feeling ashamed and amused by his own convictions while also pointing out that it would be a mistake to dismiss these ideas with an impatient eye roll, because they are very dangerous."

Clearly the purpose of the Guardian article is to make the trusting masses think that there is something 'dangerous' about believing in a different version of events to what the state and media are telling them.

What is dangerous is not being able to think critically and thus always believing the official narratives. To sweep under the carpet the fact that collusion, corruption, conspiracy and deception play a large part in the way the world is run.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230515#Comment_121230515

Buy again you're ascribing arguments to people they aren't making. Most likely because you aren't able to address the points raised in the article.

Again not believing in Qanon or that Sandy Hook was fake does not mean that you then believe that there's no such thing as corruption.

Though the fact you have to rely on this dishonest tactic, and do so while plugging your ears is a great demonstration of the perils of conspiracy theory thinking.

eightieschewbaccy

Is there any particular conspiracy theory that he's rejected that makes you conclude he's sustained brain damage? @moonage It seems distinctly like there's some theory he's rejected that you're a firm believer in.

@moonage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230777#Comment_121230777

The ones mentioned in the article include the idea that Sandy Hook was faked and Qanon. These are usually dismissed as obviously false by most conspiracy theorists and they get very upset when you suggest they might believe or support such ideas. Or when you compare their prefered conspiracy theories to the ones they reject.

I suspect that @moonage will now object to you suggesting that he might believe in one of these theories when he's not said he supports them. Ascribing positions to people they don't hold will suddenly become a unforgivable crime again.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230515#Comment_121230515

Believing far-fetched conspiracies and never questioning them is not critical thinking.

Do you believe the world is run by Satan-worshipping pedophiles?

On a hunch, do you think e.g. the Holocaust was a conspiracy at all?

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121230515#Comment_121230515

Caesar's death was not the result of a conspiracy? Conspiracies can be observed in a wide range of contexts, from politics and government to business and even everyday life. People often come together to form secret alliances or plot against a common target. Conspiracies are not unique to the United States, however. Almost every country has its own history of conspiracy theories.

A central point of contention arises when truthers claim to possess knowledge that surpasses that of the official investigators. This claim challenges the credibility of the official investigation and can be met with skepticism. Critics argue that it is unlikely for a group of individuals, commonly referred to as "truthers," to possess more accurate information and insights than the extensive resources and expertise employed in the official investigation.

Galileo's work challenged the prevailing scientific beliefs of the Catholic Church and the worldview during his time and was shown to be correct overtime. He had a long list of debunkers challenging him that he was wrong.

With 9/11, you're asking people to believe a secret team destroyed buildings on the back of a plane hijacking plot. In cases where the names of perpetrators are unknown, i understand the skepticism. The denial surrounding official reports and the dismissal of anomalies by debunkers can be attributed to various factors such as adherence to the official narrative, fear of conspiracy theories, or fearing they missed something.

 Those who are willing to critically analyze the events will recognize that the freefall collapse depicted in the model presented by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) appears strikingly unfamiliar to the actual footage of the buildings seven falling. Amidst the detailed analysis and extensive simulations carried out by the NIST, one remarkable finding stands out: the lack of freefall collapse. NIST missed such a significant detail, it calls into question the validity of their entire investigation and the subsequent conclusions drawn from it.) overlooked the destruction of eight floors. 

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248041#Comment_121248041

Again, just because people aren't convinced of the conspiracy theories you believe (and have failed to defend) it doesn't mean that they don't believe conspiracies exist. Or that they are are afraid of conspiracies. Very silly thing to claim.

You however are a perfect example of how conspiracy theorists don't actually use critical thinking.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248041#Comment_121248041

You are trying to compare conspiracies that actually happened and are based on observal facts, such as conspiracy to kill Ceasar or to steal a presidential election, with fantasy stories which for unknown reasons get titled with the word conspiracy theories.

Conspiracy theories as discussed in this forum are not the same as conspiracies. Just unfortunately both things are called by similar names. Absolutely nobody is denying that conspiracies happen.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284571#Comment_121284571

Contrary to what some debunkers may argue, the government has indeed announced programs related to UFOS. In 2017, several initiatives were revealed, aimed at studying and understanding these enigmatic objects. The government's involvement has provided a sense of legitimacy to the topic, prompting discussions and investigations into these unidentified aerial phenomena.

The House Committee on Assassinations, in its investigation into the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, announced the presence of a conspiracy. The committee, formed to reexamine the events surrounding JFK's death, conducted a thorough inquiry into the matter. Their findings suggested that there was more than one person involved in the assassination, pointing towards a conspiracy. Oswald's narrative isnt true.

The controlled demolition theory is the last conspiracy theory I discuss, and the US government has not admitted any sinister involvement or truth with. Will they ever? I don't know.

This raises the question of whether you might also be mistaken about the 9/11 conspiracy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284801#Comment_121284801

But given how you've been very very wrong about pretty everything in regards to 9/11, have made repeated mistakes about high school level physics, lied and resort to plugging your ears when called out, why would anyone question the events of 9/11?

You've not convinced a single person of your conspiracy theory. You yourself have repeated changed your theory to avoid doubting it.

The fact that none of this shakes your religious faith in your theories is very illustrative.

ghostfacekilla

@ghostfacekilla I've deleted your post as it breaches the Charter, which can be found here. Please read it before posting again as warnings can be applied for any further breaches.

Thanks

HS

robinph

@Cheerful S

Contrary to what some debunkers may argue, the government has indeed announced programs related to UFOS. In 2017, several initiatives were revealed, aimed at studying and understanding these enigmatic objects. The government's involvement has provided a sense of legitimacy to the topic, prompting discussions and investigations into these unidentified aerial phenomena.

That would be government programs with the purpose of changing the unidentified bit of the UFO tag associated with each individual incident into "identified".

That doesn't mean the government believes that UFOs = Aliens on any level whatsoever. Just that they particularly don't like anything being "unidentified". Government programs trying to find out what something is doesn't support your beliefs in any way at all.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286090#Comment_121286090

False actually because the programs were run by people in the Pentagon ( this is the government) and they have categorically stated that the likely craft witnessed was from somewhere else). However, there is another agency called ARRO, which appears to be another part of the intelligence apparatus that doesn't want the world to know what's going on.The existence of conflicting opinions within the intelligence community adds another layer of complexity to the already mysterious phenomenon of UFO sighting. It is not surprising that there is resistance against whistleblowers, as there may be factions within the United States government who want to keep the existence of crashed UFOs a secret.

silliussoddius

if you haven’t figured out by now the recent UFO stuff was just driven by a successful lobby group, you never will.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286333#Comment_121286333

was from somewhere else

From "somewhere else" as opposed to being from "here".

Define "here" and show us where these government agencies state where either "here" or "somewhere else" is.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286389#Comment_121286389

You mean like a conspiracy of people to make a lot of money by decieving the public with false information?

Conspiracy theorists wouldn't be interested in that sort of thing. Or be at all suspicious of people who would stand to make money off such a scheme.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286392#Comment_121286392

https://irp.fas.org/dia/aatip-list.pdf

Think these programs are investigating weather balloons? Go ahead and believe that.  the link has a collection of unclassified documents now that cover highly exotic and otherworldly topics. From advanced technologies and theoretical physics. Some of the products are classified!! ( what does that mean?)

One link.

Traversable Wormholes, Stargates, and Negative Energy, Dr. Eric Davis, EarthTech International (Product is classified UNCLASSIFIED/ /FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY)  

The concept of balloons traveling through wormholes challenges our perception of the limitations imposed by the laws of physics ) kidding here. Some people work on strange stuff without caring what a debunker on a site thinks.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286616#Comment_121286616

Well if the Skinwalker Scooby gang say so.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286729#Comment_121286729

Yea, a cursory look into this tells me that this is just an example of these grifters bamboozling their audience with big scifi words they don't really understand.

For instance the one document that Cheerful highlights, but didn't read is just a theoretical paper and doesn't have anything to do with people actually making wormholes or UFOs.

Most conspiracy claims can be deflated by actually looking into sources and reading things. Most conspiracy theorists do not do this. Though most now seemed to have caught on to this and now outright refuse to post anything with a traceable source.

Hoop66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286631#Comment_121286631

Are you my long-lost brother? I have a nephew very similar. I do put up with his bullshit, but only because he gets such excellent weed.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286616#Comment_121286616

Nothing in what you linked to says anything even remotely close to UFO = aliens.

Just a bunch of research papers about crazy theories that people have been investigating. That is what scientist's do, come up with a theory about something, then test their theory to see if they were right, even if they were not right they still write a paper about it to show others what they discovered in their testing of the theory. Then other scientists can come along and test their ideas against what the previous people found.

Just because scientists have written papers on things that you may have seen in Star Wars/ Trek/ Gate doesn't mean aliens have been visiting. Just that the ideas that appear in those shows can actually sometimes end up being inspiration for real life research ideas. Those things get prove, or not, and the scientific understanding of the world expands.

It's not a conspiracy.

And just because some of those papers may be classified as the US doesn't want to let their earth based enemies know what they have been researching, also doesn't mean aliens are behind it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286919#Comment_121286919

But claiming that because there are people researching such topics it means that aliens exist is a neat little marketable package.

Grfiters know that their target audience isn't going to read any of those papers beyond the title with the cool buzzwords.

They'll just see stuff like "wormhole" and "classified" and accept what they are told to. And will pay for more of the same.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121286919#Comment_121286919

The documents in question were assigned to the Department of Defense under the umbrella of a study on UFOs and observables.The claim that the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (ATTIP) was not investigating unidentified flying objects (UFOs) that could originate from somewhere other than Earth is incorrect. In fact, ATTIP was specifically dedicated to studying and analyzing encounters with UFOs, including the possibility of extraterrestrial origin or other.

Experts within ATTIP carefully analyzed the collected information to discern patterns, characteristics, and potential explanations for the observed phenomena. Grusch has been assigned a crucial role in this program, which involves conducting thorough investigations across various databases and engaging in discussions with potential sources who would have information about hidden crash retrieval programs. Grusch revelation suggested the presence of a clandestine group with a separate civilization, operating beyond the control of the US government, and deliberately concealing vital information.

The discovery of this breakaway civilization operating outside the control of the US government was a significant revelation here. It suggested the existence of a parallel power structure, capable of conducting activities beyond the scrutiny and accountability of the established authorities.

The Inspector General of the Department of Defense (DOD) has given his support to Grusch, ensuring that there is no mere hearsay involved. However, there is a significant challenge in providing the information related to this matter, as it is of a classified nature. Until the members of Congress obtain the necessary clearance to communicate with him, the sharing of this information remains restricted. The sentiment suggests that there may be a lack of support or interest in sharing this classified knowledge with the public by some in government.

The anticipation for more UFO whistleblowers to step forward with bombshell news in late 2023 and early 2024 is high. I hear things across the internet looking promising.

robinph

@Cheerful S

The documents in question were assigned to the Department of Defense under the umbrella of a study on UFOs and observables.The claim that the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (ATTIP) was not investigating unidentified flying objects (UFOs) that could originate from somewhere other than Earth is incorrect. In fact, ATTIP was specifically dedicated to studying and analyzing encounters with UFOs, including the possibility of extraterrestrial origin or other.

Yet still none of which supports your claim that UFOs = aliens.

There is "unidentified" things. The US government departments are trying to identify the things. They are open to all possibilities being investigated, however crazy, so that doesn't rule out extraterrestrial. That they haven't ruled ET out doesn't do anything to support a claim of it being ET though.

If you have any such evidence then I'm sure they would be delighted to hear from you. Saying that something odd happened which we cannot yet explain does not count as evidence of ET though, just that there is currently a gap in our knowledge.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287125#Comment_121287125

All of which are cool stories spread like a game of telephone by true believers.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287348#Comment_121287348

the phrase "let's see how it all plays out before deciding what the truth is or not" serves as a reminder to exercise caution and patience when evaluating the veracity of a situation. Conspiracy theories are taking up an increasing amount of my time and attention today. I've going to back out of these threads for a period of time including the 9/11 one. I will be back if anything new happens around the UFO topic, as the terminator says. 

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287438#Comment_121287438

You've been posting conspiracies here for years, none of it has come true

Over the last decade I haven't seen any user conspiracy here that turned out to be true

It's not like if we wait long enough it will turn out that satellites are fake or Covid wasn't real or Sandy Hook was an inside job.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287438#Comment_121287438

Which might make sense if any of the "theories" amounted to something more than "something odd happened which I don't understand". There then might be some part of the theory which could be tested, or some evidence to back up even one small part. Then you could pull on that thread of a theory and see where it leads.

People have been inventing ever more daft ideas around the various theories over the years. None of which have ever amounted to anything. Zero evidence of anything odd having actually happened in any of the conspiracy theories, and zero evidence of why anyone would ever want to go to the trouble of carrying out any of the crazy ideas in the first place even or how they would have got away with it, except for some "pesky kids" on the Internet who were the only ones to be able to see through the cunning plans.

Baldrick came up with far better plans with more of a grasp of reality than any of the conspiracy theories currently doing the rounds on here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287472#Comment_121287472

The perfect illustration of this is the thread when people were asked for conspiracy theories that were proven true. None were provided and the thread ended with cheerful arguing that 16 people rigged the WTC towers for demolition over a weekend. And Markus arguing for a flat earth.

Meanwhile actual events occur that should be ripe for theorizing but you never see any interest in.

Like possible collaboration between US government officials, up to and including the president and armed fascists trying to storm the capital and over turn an election? Barely a mention here by conspiracy theorists.

Remember the Panama papers and how the reporter who broke that story got blown up by a car bomb? Conspiracy theorists don't.

A small group of lobbyists with strange beliefs gaining support in government to obtain public funds for their "research" while using dramatic hearings to boost their own fame and credibility? Conspiracy theorists don't want to look into that.

Cheerful S

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287518#Comment_121287518

Pentagon has taken an unprecedented step by initiating an internal investigation to examine the validity of long-standing conspiracy theories. Unlike previous instances where civilian bodies led such inquiries, this time, the Pentagon itself has taken charge.

This internal investigation holds significant implications for both the Pentagon and the wider public. If the claims are found to be unsubstantiated, it will debunk the conspiracy theories that have persisted for years.

It is indeed nonsensical to label Grusch as a liar when his claims were presented as credible and urgent by the Department of Defence Attorney General. That's a big deal overlooked here.

Given his clearance for all SAPs, including black projects, it is reasonable to expect that he should have been taken seriously. This raises the question of why he would fabricate such a story about a UFO crash retrieval program? It is unlikely that someone with his background and access to sensitive information would risk their credibility by spreading false information. The issue of secrecy has been a topic of concern among a group of 40 whistleblowers too.

The lack of open communication between whistleblowers and the public may indicate that there are individuals within the government who are highly dissatisfied with any mention of these covert programs. To them, individuals like Grusch and others who bring such matters to light may be seen as traitors.

The UFO conference in question was organized with the intention of facilitating an open discourse between members of Congress and key officials from the DOD. However, a group of DOD representatives made it clear to the Congresspeople that they were not willing to entertain discussions related to a specific material Grusch discussed. The refusal left the congresspeople bewildered and frustrated, by a refusal to facilitate a SCIF.

Access to information and the ability to hear claims made by individuals are fundamental aspects of a democratic society. However, when it comes to Grusch's claims, security concerns have restricted the ability of Congress people to listen to these claims right now. Of course, if was all wild claims that wouldn't happen.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121300468#Comment_121300468

And yet, he did present a false and very ridiculous story about a UFO being retrieved in the 30s in Italy.

That's a story that is so ridiculous, most UFO researchers admit that it's false.

However not only was Gruash presenting that story under oath to congress as an example of a credible incident, he was acting as if it was classified to congress, but then had no issue blabbing all about it on some rando podcast.

So either he is lying or his a crap investigator. Either way, he's already torpedoed his credibility to anyone who looks into what he actually said beyond the headlines and what conspiracy theorists want to believe.

Believers have not at all addressed this red flag. They avoid and ignore it because they can't address it.

They do this with every point that makes them question or doubt their beliefs.

Cheerful S

In Europe, cases of UFO sightings were rarely reported, especially in the past. The documentation on such cases is difficult to come by. However, there was a UFO researcher who dedicated his efforts to investigating UFO sightings in his own country, Italy. This researcher discovered that the stories of UFO crash in Italy had some truth to them as early as 1996. In fact, he even released some documents to the newspapers, possibly providing evidence to support the claim of a crash?

The very same one Grusch talked about—odd or just a repeat of what he heard (read link)—Grusch, not a ufologist, may have come across stories related to UFOs during his work. However, it is important to note that these stories may not hold much significance

. What truly matters is whether there was a real concealed program aimed at retrieving crashed UFOs. The focus should be on uncovering the truth behind such a program, rather than getting caught up in mere anecdotes and tales told around crashes. 

www.popularmechanics.com/military/research/a44466099/researcher-says-he-has-evidence-of-1933-ufo-crash-in-italy/

Skepticism surrounding claims of UFO crash retrievals, with many debunkers doubting the existence of such programs. Consequently how would you go about verifying the truthfulness of Grusch's claims about a UFO crash in Italy anyhow?

The fundamental premise again in another way is that individuals over the course of seven decades have encountered unidentified flying objects and concealed them from the world. So, therefore, if true, would the Italy crash not be part of this recovery effort? Again, nobody knows for sure where they got these UFOs from.

Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility (SCIF) plays a crucial role in safeguarding classified information. Grusch was going to tell them wild stories DOD would let him in with them and laugh at the process. Refusal says a lot about Grusch credibiity.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121300485#Comment_121300485

More waffle.

Gruash was refering to a specific case in Italy in the 30s. This case came from an obviously fake document and the testimony of a crank who wrote letters about his father being involved in every single UFO event ever.

It's a false story. It's obviously false.

Yet Gruash is presenting it as one of his best cases.

So he is either lying, or he's a bad investigator.

You don't want to deal with this red flag, so you ignore.

Cheerful S

 Your viewpoint on the UFO subject remains unaltered. Despite the enduring interest and ongoing discussions surrounding this topic, you consider it to be devoid of verifiable evidence and regard it as the same old stuff. In his presentation, he admitted that it was not one of his best cases. He discussed a fascinating topic, the UFO crash retrieval program, and proposed that it could have taken place before the infamous Roswell incident. This challenges the commonly held belief that Roswell was the first significant UFO crash retrieval event.

Whenever Congress people say that this is all disinformation, that's a red flag for me.In place of all this nonsense that some in DOD are engaging in, Grusch should already be SCIF telling Congress what he knows here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121300510#Comment_121300510

My view point remains unaltered because as usual you are not addressing any points.

That's why the majority of folks do not get convinced by your arguments.

When you guys ignore points and red flags about your theories, readers aren't fooled by it. They don't think that your dodging was some kind of brilliant tactic that you cleverly employed.

All they see is that you aren't able to handle the point and that you are being completely dishonest about it. And addition they see you assuming they are idiots who would be fooled by the fingers in the ears tactic.

Maybe like the guy in the article, you should start wondering why you have to do this yourself.