Can I refuse a smart meter?

iniall

I've had notification from ESB Networks that they will be installing a smart meter at my address in the near future. If I understand it correctly, the smart meter will mean my current setup of day/night meter will end and I'll be paying full rate to charge my car overnight, excepting a window of a couple of hours at a reduced rate with some suppliers. Do I have the right to refuse smart meter installation and keep my current day/night setup? Or should I just resign myself to the smart meter and scheduled charging within a much smaller window and at an overall higher rate?

Mickeroo

You should be able to just keep using it as a day/night metre as long as you dont sign up to any smart plans.

the_amazing_raisin

You've misunderstood it 😉

The D/N meters are being replaced by a Smart D/N meter which is functionally equivalent to the current meter

It means you can keep your night rate tariff as is

However if you swap to a smart tariff then you can't go back

You can refuse the installation, but if you have solar (or plan to get it) then you won't be eligible for export payments

Speaking of solar, the smart meter will give you measured export instead of estimated. This will be done regardless of the tariff you're on

It's probably worth keeping in mind that if you refuse it now and your meter is damaged later, ESB might not have stock of the older meters. So you could end up on a smart meter eventually anyway

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194057#Comment_121194057

Is it worth refusing if you have an EV and intend charging from solar? I assume the estimate for export may be quite wrong if you are not exporting much and filling a car instead of exporting.

Jonathan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194776#Comment_121194776

Not reason to refuse a RM108 D/N smart meter. Deemed export was a boon while it lasted but it is now coming to an end. Either you accept RM108 meter and get measured export payments, or you reject and get no export payments. No brainer.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194776#Comment_121194776

Well here's my somewhat simplified view:

A)Refuse a smart meter and get nothing for export

B)Get a smart meter and get something for export

Even with an EV I wound up exporting in summer. The estimated amount is actually pretty accurate, last month I exported 119kWh against an estimate of 131kWh

waterwelly

I'd say at some point everybody will have their meter changed.

Next step will probably be a manual meter reading charge.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195363#Comment_121195363

Bit of a conundrum there, as I believe some of the smart meters need to be read manually

If the signal in your area isn't good enough then the meter reports every 2 months instead of 30 mins

I think if you've an MCC16 meter then you get the 2 month readings, although don't take my word for it. I'm constantly getting the meter codes mixed up in my head 😅

ESBN don't say exactly how that 2 month reading is performed, but I believe the meters can be read remotely from a van, they can have a kind of ZigBee radio or similar installed

I imagine they'd only go that route if the signal is so bad the meter literally cannot connect

Anyway, if the dumb meters got a charge for reading, then it'd be hard to argue that the manually read smart meters shouldn't get the same, which would definitely generate some blowback

I think there's kind of a threefold strategy going on

First, the D/N tariffs are going to get worse. Suppliers will stop offering discounts of any kind. Supposedly the CRU told them to do that, but according to the CRU they don't control customer tariffs so who knows what to believe 🤷‍♂️

Second, all new builds will be installed with a smart meter and it's possible it'll be activated in advance so new owners are stuck with a smart plan

Third, which I alluded to earlier, ESBN may stop supporting the older meters. So if you need them out to do any work (grid connection upgrade perhaps) then they won't do anything unless you take a smart meter as well

CivilEx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058316749/can-i-refuse-a-smart-meter

Resign yourself to the fact that the tide is coming in...find the best option under the various smart meter plans for your usage patterns.

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195437#Comment_121195437

To be fair it's not the consumers fault where a smart meter needs to be read manually so it's hard to justify a charge for that.

It's a drip feed process with these meters, the powers that be didn't want a repeat of the water charges fiasco.

iniall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194057#Comment_121194057

Are you sure the day/night tariff stays as is when a smart meter is installed? I can’t get an answer from ESB Networks about that but I thought I saw someone saying here on Boards that it doesn’t work that way.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195785#Comment_121195785

Yes.

It's in bold on the letter they send out.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195785#Comment_121195785

It was like that until recently, the new RM108 meter which replaces the D/N meter can have a day and night tariff

Truth be told, it's the same meter as the existing smart meters, just configured differently

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195437#Comment_121195437

I was just looking at the rates on electric Ireland and came across this:

If the signal from your meter is not sufficient to support the transfer of half-hourly data, we will contact you to discuss other suitable products.​​

Not sure what alternative product are / will be

waterwelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196084#Comment_121196084

I've had a smart day / night meter installed. So when my contract is up I can just switch to a smart plan without a meter change?

Night Boost is about 12c. That's a lot of batteries charged.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195437#Comment_121195437

Second, all new builds will be installed with a smart meter and it's possible it'll be activated in advance so new owners are stuck with a smart plan

That happened to me. New build and stuck on a smart plan from day one.

toledobastos

I was supposed to get the new RM108 fitted today, but the engineer got stuck with something and couldn't come over. It's looking like this will be done in November as I have some trips scheduled for this month. I'm a bit worried that the RM108 might disappear by the time they come around, but I'm also curious to know what happens to the FIT? Do I continue to get deemed export until they finally come over or there's no more deemed export from October onwards?

Boscoirl

We have an old meter that winds back on export, currently dont charge my car at home as i can do it at work for free apart from the occasional charge on the granny lead.

TLI on behalf of ESBN called numerous times to upgrade the meter but "luckily" we weren't in. eventually an admin person from TLI called to the house and managed to talk to wife, and asked did we want our meter changed, the wife asked did we have to? and she no, marked us off the list, and we have seen nobody since

I am sure we'll be back on someones list again but for the time being we have a reprieve :D

might have to bite the bullet at some stage when we need a charger installed as we'll need the Tails upgraded to support the draw, and i doubt we would get away without changing the meter then.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121197136#Comment_121197136

depends on the driving style and battery size.

I went for years on the granny cable on a 30 kW leaf, only fitted the charger when we got the second ev and ditched the ICE

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196890#Comment_121196890

They put you on a fixed 24 hour plan if they don't have the usage details for a time based plan. If they have no usage days at all they may hassle you to read the meter yourself or eventually send someone to read the meter. Many older meters are inside garages etc and very hard for a meter reader to get to.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195785#Comment_121195785

Smart D/N meter roll out only began this month

Padraig Mor

What is the phone number to refuse the smart D/N meter? I haven't got a letter but want to make sure they know I don't want one!

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121197628#Comment_121197628

Why? I'm eagerly awaiting mine! RM108 smart meter with 9 hours of night rate to import! Once night rate remains significantly less than export rate there's profit to be made

Just received the "We'll be out in a few weeks" third letter

Padraig Mor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121197721#Comment_121197721

https://www.thejournal.ie/government-time-of-day-pricing-electricity-5726583-Mar2022/

Eamonn Ryan: "I think one that could be really effective is to give time-of-day-pricing, make that mandatory".

While the smart D/N seems fine now, one stroke of a pen from the government and it's massive peak pricing and titchy 2 hour night rate! I don't have solar or battery so those aren't a consideration. I accept decent D/N plans are drying up but I'll hold out as long as it makes sense.....

ELM327

I'm already on a time of day pricing tariff. NIght is cheaper than day. My argument against smart meters was always that the night rates are piddly 2-4 hour blocks. With 9 hours I have enough to charge the car fully or charge up my 45kWh house batteries and export for 11c profit per unit exported

Calahonda52

How long is the payback on 45 kW of hardware at the 11c arbitrage rate

ELM327

kWh, not kW. And when I bought it it was bought to go 100% off grid, before I knew RM108 were available. I dont know what the payback will be as it depends on how much I can export.

iniall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121197907#Comment_121197907

Who are you getting the 9 hours night rate from?

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121198192#Comment_121198192

flogas, but anyone on MCC02 gets 9 hours of day night rate

Padraig Mor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121197907#Comment_121197907

My understanding is that 'time of use' in the article context means day/night/peak 'smart' rates.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121198504#Comment_121198504

time of use means different tariffs for different times of the day. MCC02 day night rates already have that definition. You're thinking of DST tariffs, which must have higher pricing between 5-7 pm. Look, if they put me on that I'll just go full export during that time.

Padraig Mor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121197628#Comment_121197628

So....anyone have the phone number as above? No letter here yet....

eagerv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121201167#Comment_121201167

1800 928123 or 01 6985005

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121201167#Comment_121201167

Try this perhaps?

https://www.esbnetworks.ie/contact-us

Out of curiosity, why do you want to opt out?

Padraig Mor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121201213#Comment_121201213

Covered here:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121197777#Comment_121197777

For reference, I don't have solar / battery, and have a 3.7kW charger and two EVs.

eagerv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121201213#Comment_121201213

I also opted out, don't as me why.🙂. Mainly because I am a stubborn bu**er, we don't export anything now, the days of family hols, ie empty house are now gone. Any surplus goes into a car, though I think that has probably ended for this year..

ZenV

Can I refuse a smart meter?

Short answer of course is yes

all the details are here: https://es-ireland.com/refuse-a-smart-meter/

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121198613#Comment_121198613

Do you have a battery storage setup in an apartment with no solar?

I've also thought about cheap night rate storage and export during the day.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121421107#Comment_121421107

No. I've a large roof of solar, over a 6 bed house, and 45kWh of storage.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121197777#Comment_121197777

Mandatory for utilities to offer it. Not for customers to sign up to it.

Padraig Mor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121422273#Comment_121422273

That's the point - in the article, Ryan was talking about making such plans mandatory for customers with smart meters.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121422716#Comment_121422716

No, he was saying it would be mandatory for suppliers to offer a TOU tariff.

if you understand how electricity is bought and sold they actually make really good sense

mailforkev

Got a call from Circet there about them swapping my meter out for a smart one next week.

I currently have a day/night RM258 meter (MCC02), with Energia on their D/N plan (RIP the EV plan).

Presuming they swap me for one of the new RM108 ones then I should be fine, shouldn't I... Is there anything that I'm not thinking of that means I should tell them to leave my existing one.

They changed me to an original smart meter a few years back and thankfully I got them to remove it and give me the D/N one.

Ubbquittious

I refused one over the summer but no doubt they will try to install one again at some point in the future

SKG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121592806#Comment_121592806

The new RM108 would be configured as MCC02 also, when installed. Unless you switch over onto a Smart plan with your supplier. Then it would be configured as MCC12 (read half-hourly) or MCC16 (read bi-monthly). And there's no way back.

MojoMaker

Currently the better deals on the market seem now to be smart plans, so maybe the tide is turning in favour of smart meters finally?

ongarite

Yes, if you have an EV the best value is on smart meters.

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121592806#Comment_121592806

I think the main thing is that you now have an upside in terms of you will have the option of picking a smart plan in the future. (You can't go back after picking a smart plan).

If you have solar panels you can get paid for export, if you refuse a smart meter you will not get paid for export. If you were never offered a smart meter you will get estimated export based on panel size.

yllw.ldbttr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121597396#Comment_121597396

I think it's actually based on the inverter size rather than the panels but otherwise agreed.

joe1303l

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595236#Comment_121595236

Really ? Can you give an example for someone that needs to charge an EV at 7kWh for say 9hrs overnight 5-6 times a week ?

Mav11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121592806#Comment_121592806

I'm on D/N and they swapped me out in October. No problems, everything fine. However they (EI), are trying to encourage me to switch to a smart plan every time I log into my account.