Winter Fuel Payments for pensioners on 52k per year, Is Our welfare system out of touch?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158511#Comment_121158511

I reckon that there are plenty more expenses to having poor health than paying a GP.

Geuze

This country is very generous to over 65s / over 70s.

They get three tax reliefs that <65 don't get.

Take my parents as an example:

350k house + maybe another 200k non-deposits + maybe 200k on deposit

They can't spend their income of 48k-50k approx

They pay 9% direct income tax, but they get:

two full med cards

two free travel passes

free TV licence

35 pm / 420 pa off their elec bill

No other country is as generous!!!

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158480#Comment_121158480

No, you are simply agitating for 30 year olds who choose not to work to be given even more. 99% of them could not be classed as in any way vulnerable to having a house that it not heated to sauna temperatures.

You are trying to put a veneer of respectibility on that position by saying "hey, look over there. Look at those greedy pensioners. Whaddabout those".

There are two separate issues and you are deliberately conflating them.

redunited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158539#Comment_121158539

Please do not put words into my mouth.

You are coming across as very condescending to young families who are struggling currently.

We are going through a cost-of-living crisis, what was comfortable last year is not comfortable this year. Many households cant even pay their electricity bills.

I do not believe the state should be placing limited social supports into those on 52k per year as they have just done when it was announced a retired couple aged 70 years and over can now receive fuel support with a combined income of 52k per year.

There are far more vulnerable people who could do with that welfare support on far less income.

And if you really want to keep this to pensioners, how about doubling the support to pensioners on less than 30k per year, instead of giving anything to those on 52k per year? They are clearly suffering more fuel poverty than any pensioner on 52k per year.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158584#Comment_121158584

So for the few pensioners who are reasonably well off what do you suggest? How much would means testing them cost in terms of money and personal dignity? 52k a year for two old folks renting in Dublin is a lot less than 52k for 2 old folks in Carlow living in their own paid for home.

I think pensioners should be treated equally and those who squirrelled away money so they would have a more comfortable retirement should not be punished for it further.

I also think their a far too many variables to make blanket calls on who should get it and who should not. This angst at this niche situation would much better directed at government, ombudsmen, and energy companies who are clearly fleecing us all at present. IE electricity, it goes up, then so do the bills, it comes down "We are locked into contracts and cant bring it down till X date" - load of bs.

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158303#Comment_121158303

You are missing or deciding to ignore that it was stated that many pensioners who receive such figures did not work hard to receive these figures.

"Pensioners being treated as an homogeneous "poor" group is a failing. As is the prevailing narrative that all of these people "worked hard" and "built this country". Some certainly did, but plenty didn't!"

It is patently obvious that any pensioners whom have amassed such a pension entitlement have worked, no doubt they would have worked hard and to begrudge them assistance at this point because they have provided for their retirement is manifestly wrong.

redunited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121159974#Comment_121159974

With that logic, you could argue millionaire pensioners should receive the fuel payment too.

The payment is supposed to assist the most vulnerable, not those with decent incomes.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121159974#Comment_121159974

And dont forget paid masses of tax if they are indeed that wealthy - but again its such a small minority of them.

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121160050#Comment_121160050

Well they would clearly fail the means test wouldn't they?

What sort of income limit would you propose for the fuel allowance?

How much would the additional proposed measure cost the exchequer on an annual basis?

How much would not paying the fuel allowance to pensioners in receipt of pensions in excess of € 52k that do not fail the means test will save on an annual basis?

Where will the additional funding come from to cover your proposed rise in the fuel allowance qualifying threshold?

Do you propose cuts in other welfare rates, additional taxation, cuts in public services?

Widdensushi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158532#Comment_121158532

Aging population means the voters are pensioners, continuous trend of governments buying votes means that trend will continue.

beggars_bush

We are a one income family

My wife could not claim any welfare payments while she stayed at home for the past few years being a mother.

Despite having worked full time for most of the previous 10 years.

We're not entitled to anything really

Geuze

The Home Carers tax credit?

The Homemakers scheme?

FurrySlippers

The idea that wealthy pensioners don't exist is nonsense. But there is no political will to take on this group.

I know many wealthy pensioners who can't spend their income.

I also know some in the above cohort whose kids are dependent on parental dig outs. And these are adult kids, with young children of their own.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167662#Comment_121167662

If you work for the guts of 50 years and pay your taxes for all of that then you are entitled to your pension. You're just jealous. Suck it up.

redunited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121170892#Comment_121170892

Nobody is denying anyone a pension, what we are sating is, that they shouldn't be entitled to state handouts if they are wealthy.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121171738#Comment_121171738

Pensioners do not receive anything they are not entitled to though. Life should be comfortable for a pensioner in their last few years if they have paid their taxes and pension contributions.

Stoned_Rosie

Why are pensioners grouped as a "poor" group anyways?

Most pensioners I know are among the most wealthy around. They spend **** all and their pension just builds and builds.

They also get plenty of allowances and benefits.

Charles Babbage

Pensioners are not expected to work, someone of working age on the minimum wage should just get a better job in this day and age.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121187210#Comment_121187210

And when they get that better job they will be replaced by another person working for minimum wage.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121187223#Comment_121187223

Yes but they will be better off. Same applies to their replacement, and so on, until the normal worker gets more.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121187657#Comment_121187657

Upskilling, qualifications etc are a route out of low pay but not all will be able to take it.

There will always be those whose work is undervalued.

Even though we have full employment there are still too many on minimum wage.

Sam Russell

Could you post the source of 'too many on minimum wage'. How many are too many? Is it any?

There are many jobs where the minimum wage is too much, but they get the minimum which is OK. Some just require the person to be present and not actually to do anything.

I assume new workers start on minimum and as they get more expertise, their pay would progress.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121190440#Comment_121190440

About 150,000.

There are more in informal employment in family situations.

The trouble is that it's not enough to live on.

As a stepping stone for younger people it may have some use but a living wage is better for adults.

(I'm conscious that apart from how erratic contributions can effect pension eligibility we may be going off topic)

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121191100#Comment_121191100

So no source of the 150,000.

The minimum wage is an hourly rate, so you work more hours and you get more to take home.

Family arrangements are a private matter within the family. Afterall, some people choose to stay at home to do home duties and look after children - do school runs, prepare food, shop, etc, and do not get any payment let alone a minimum wage. But at least they might qualify for the Winter Fuel allowance.

elperello

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/labourmarket/lfsnationalminimumwageestimates/

It's in this link 137,500.

That's people self reporting so it's easily another 12,500 in informal situations.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158532#Comment_121158532

Most European countries have free health care and several countries have pensions that are at least as high in PPP terms.

The situation is decent, but not out of all proportion to European countries.

tesla_newbie

Spoiling pensioners has always been popular with the vast majority of the population so governments have nothing to loose by doing it

ELM327

I think there is a lot of DSP/Welfare wasted money and bloat in this country but I think pensioners are the last group I would target, along with carers, for cuts.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121200666#Comment_121200666

Whether they are spoiled or not is debatable.

Most people who are working now hope to be pensioners one day.

Therefore they have a vested interest in having good pensions.

People who are pensioners now also have a vested interest.

Anyone who has elderly relations wants them to have their best life.

Why would any politician go against odds like that and who would want them to ?

tesla_newbie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121200759#Comment_121200759

It’s about the perception that all pensioners are poverty stricken, most aren’t and lots are well off and shouldn’t have freebies heaped upon them