Winter Fuel Payments for pensioners on 52k per year, Is Our welfare system out of touch?

redunited

Why is it in Ireland that the state deems a married pensioner couple on 52k per year are worthy of Winter Fuel Payments yet a married couple on the minimum wage X2 of €47008 per year is expected to pay for their fuel without any support from the state?

It's generally agreed that pensioners have very little overheads, especially compared to a family. Pensioners generally have no mortgages as they would be paid off.

The needs for day-to-day transport would not be the same so overheads for running a car would be much less, not to mention they would have a travel pass for free public transport. There are other supports available too such as free TV licenses.

In fact, if you look at the whole issue around fuel payments, for those under 70 you have to be on qualifying long-term social welfare benefits, if you are over 70 you simply qualify if your income is below 52k per year. Yet for those working and struggling with day-to-day costs, there is absolutely no support with fuel allowance.

A minimum-wage couple with 1 parent raising 2 young children and the other partner out working would have an income of €452 per week Gross, €404 Net approx, with the Working Family Payment of €144 ( for their family size) their income increases to €548 euro per week. Child Benefits for 2 children equate to around €65 euro per week thus the total combined income for the couple works out at around €613 euro. This couple will either have rent or a mortgage to pay on top of that.

To summarise;

A pensioner couple over 70 can earn €52k per year and receive a Fuel allowance.

A family of 4 earns €31,876 per year and has no entitlement to Fuel allowance.

Surely there is something very wrong with our social welfare system when a retired couple on 52k can receive support for their fuel needs, but a working family on much less receives nothing, especially at a time when record numbers of families are falling into arrears with energy bills.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/d98ed-minister-humphreys-launches-2023204-fuel-allowance-season/

Under the new Means Test for Over 70s, a single person Over 70 can have income of €500 per week while a couple can have income of €1,000 per week. In addition, the amount of savings disregarded in the Over 70s Mean Test has been increased from €20,000 to €50,000.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/families-and-children/working-family-payment/

Steep rise in the number of Irish households falling into arrears on energy bills

https://www.thejournal.ie/energy-prices-ireland-6178694-Sep2023/

KaneToad

Pensioners being treated as an homogeneous "poor" group is a failing. As is the prevailing narrative that all of these people "worked hard" and "built this country". Some certainly did, but plenty didn't!

redunited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158157#Comment_121158157

I mean I have no issue with helping those in need, but pensioners on 52k per year are certainly not in hardship, and yet the government has come out over recent days blowing a trumpet about the new means test allowing a pension couple over 70 to earn 52k per year for fuel payments at a time huge numbers of disconnections and energy arrears have been mounting up for the rest of society!

"It has also found that there has been a “notable increase” in the number of domestic electricity customers falling into arrears since the last Government emergency electricity credit in March. 

The number of electricity customers in arrears increased from 285,091 in May of this year to 298,075 in June. 

Meanwhile the number of gas customers in arrears increased from 172,415 to 15,569. 

There has also been an increase in accounts being disconnected due to non-payment. "

https://www.thejournal.ie/energy-prices-ireland-6178694-Sep2023/

zell12

De most vulnerable. It was purely a political move to shore up pensioner votes.

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158157#Comment_121158157

One could argue that pensioners in receipt of a pension of € 52k did indeed work hard to attain this, that doesn't just happen without any effort on their behalf.

Donald Trump

The young couple have more options to improve their lot. Most families have two people working. Your contrived example has one minimum wage worker supporting a spouse and two kids. In what world would someone embark on that as a reasonable and viable life path? Not to mention that they somehow have a mortgage to pay for.

Plus, pensioners will have plenty of health related expenses that most 30 year olds won't have. Of all the criticisms I might have about wealth imbalance between older and younger generations, I wouldn't be moaning about the pension FFS.

redunited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158195#Comment_121158195

Are you suggesting those on minimum wage do not work hard?

Just because someone earns a big salary does not mean they worked hard.

redunited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158196#Comment_121158196

I would think that most 70-year-olds lived in a household where one parent stayed at home and raised their children whilst the other went to work.

Currently, A womens right to choose to be at home or choose to be at work is upheld in the Irish constitution.

You say a couple on minimum wage can improve their lot, how would this be done, should one of those working quit their job to go to college, that then would place them in further hardship not to mention the cost of returning to education.

In this country birth rates are falling because people can't raise families, or are struggling to do so because of the huge cost of living, thus surely it makes sense to support those very people instead of helping out people on 52k per year who have very little costs towards living in their retirement?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158222#Comment_121158222

The right to chose something does not equate to a right to be protected from the consequences of that choice.

redunited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158229#Comment_121158229

Well, Technically it does,

Article 41.2.1.

“The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.”

Eitherway, we need people to have families, thats how society works.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158245#Comment_121158245

No. Nowhere does that say you are protected from the consequences of your decisions. A woman who leaves a 200k year role to mind her kids is not constitutionally entitled to have the State pay her 200k a year

Birth rates are not falling because of minimum wage single earner households, they are falling because due to "middle class" people trying to be responsible and cope with the demands of career coupled with the costs of having kids.

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158198#Comment_121158198

Not at all, I worked before minimum wage was a thing Ir £ 2.30 an hour so I know plenty about working hard for small return.

However Pensioners today who worked their way through the harshest of years in Ireland in the 70's and 80's to earn a nice pension entitlement did certainly work to do so, to begrudge them that is a typical Irish blame everyone else mindset.

If you read the post that I quoted you will see that it alludes to many pensioners not working, they would not be on € 52k

redunited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158257#Comment_121158257

Shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour 

I would argue that the state paying a retired couple in receipt of 52k per year a fuel payment but not supporting a family of 32k per year with any fuel support is most likely forcing the mother to make a decision on economic necessity to choose to work.

redunited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158281#Comment_121158281

But would you not agree that a couple on 52k per year does not really need fuel payments whereas a family of 4 on minimum wage is more likely and deserving of some support such as a fuel payment?

Social Welfare is about supporting the vulnerable. I highly doubt there are many pensioners on 52k facing fuel poverty compared to current families who are.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158291#Comment_121158291

Necessity does not equate with things you would like to have. The people in your example are already apparently in receipt of a sizeable wedge from the taxpayer. Your logic appears to be that the State paying pensioners an allowance forces the young mother to work. With the obvious conclusion being that if they stopped paying the pensioner the allowance, the mother wouldn't need to any more.

A first year apprentice gets 260 quid a month starting out. In your case, your hypothetical couple would be better off if one of them went to do an apprenticeship M-F and the other worked a minimum wage job in a shop at weekends. (not even counting being able to access all of the second persons personal tax credits). Once the first year is over, the apprentice would be back near to where they were on minimum wage.

Depending on handouts is not a good longer-term strategy

piplip87

All this while Anto who got a dole application form for his 18th birthday, is getting a fuel allowance to keep his council house that he pays 30 quid a week warm for the winter, while those working who will struggle for the winter keep the tax money coming in for him.

redunited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158310#Comment_121158310

Necessity equates with the basic means of survival, our social welfare system is supposed to be designed to assist with that for those who are vulnerable.

I do not believe a couple on 52k is as vulnerable as a family of 4 who are in receipt of 33k per year.

But do you accept, that a couple as per my description of 33k per year should be getting a fuel payment instead of a retired couple over 70 on 52k per year?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158338#Comment_121158338

Not when they are comfortable enough so that only one of them needs to work. The pensioners don't have that option.

redunited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158342#Comment_121158342

How can you compare a couple on 32k per year for a family of 4 being more comfortable than a pensioner couple on 52k per year?

There are clearly more costs for those raising a family than a retired couple on 52k.

Also, what's stopping that retired couple from still working? Many still do as there are no barriers (outside of medical reasons) to prevent them from doing so if they so wish.

However, I would argue, that someone on 52k per year should not be in fuel poverty as that is quite a decent retirement income, especially when its way over the state pension of €22984 for a retired couple.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158357#Comment_121158357

The couple are comfortable enough to make the conscious choice that only one of them needs to work. Obviously everyone's personal circumstances are different, but fair play to them for organising things so they have the luxury to make that choice

redunited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158365#Comment_121158365

You are limiting your view to a single worldview that does not equate to reality,

There are multiple reasons why that couple have children, government policies also change the cost of living. A couple with 2 children may well have been comfortable a year ago, but the current cost of living now highlights this not to be the case any longer as fuel poverty is soaring.

If the government is going to assist the most vulnerable with fuel support which is the intended reason for this social welfare payment, there is absolutely no logic or defense as to why a retired couple on 52k per year is more vulnerable than a family of 4 on 33k per year.

Qaanaaq

Pensioners are not the problem here so i don't know why you are trying to connect them to the lack of support for working low income families. Its typical divide tactics to pitch one group against another, diverting it away from the real source of the issue. Government support for low paid working.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158405#Comment_121158405

I think "not equating views with reality" would be more appropriate for the couple who embark on a path with their two kids where only one works in a minimum wage job and expecting to live in the lap of luxury.

You haven't given any indication as to why the other partner chooses not to work (even part time at weekends).............while at the same time questioning why the pensioners aren't out there slogging away at a 9-5.

It's a fuel allowance. I'm sure you would unfortunately find plenty of cases where pensioners die due to not having enough heating in their houses. You probably won't find many cases of 30 year olds suffering the same.

redunited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158424#Comment_121158424

Lets be clear here,

It's not pensioners in receipt of state pension, they in my view are underpaid and in need of fuel support. I would argue those pensioners n 52k per year are not worthy to receive the winter fuel payment.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158446#Comment_121158446

Is it "National Kick-a-Pensioner Day"?

redunited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158429#Comment_121158429

Lap of Luxury?

I doubt anyone living on minimum wage is living in a lap of luxury, in fact, I would argue those pensioners on 52k per year are living in more luxury than the family on minimum wage.

Even if both parents were working and earning minimum age they are still earning far less than 52k per year and still not entitled to the same support as those retired couple on 52k per year, and that is before the young couple have any deductions for rent/mortgage, etc.

redunited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158453#Comment_121158453

Who is kicking a pensioner?

I have already stated those pensioners on state pension should be paid more.

I am talking about pensioners on receipt of 52k per year not being as vulnerable as a family of 4 who are earning far less than 52k per year being entitled to zero support when it comes to helping with their fuel payments.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158455#Comment_121158455

You are all over the place. You claim in one post that you are just concerned with pensioners getting something that you think they shouldn't, but then you go on about some hypothetical young couple. Which makes it seem like you are actually more concerned with people not getting it than those that do.

Your argument on the pensioners should stand on its own merits rather than "whataboutery".

Qaanaaq

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158446#Comment_121158446

You should focus your rage at the real problem. government support for the working poor. Leave pensioners alone.

redunited

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158462#Comment_121158462

I'll make this simple for you.

I do not believe a retired couple on a pension of 52k per year should receive state welfare for fuel payments when those working and struggling on far less than 52k per year do not.

If I were to propose a fuel scheme to help the vulnerable, I would suggest anyone on less than 30k per year should receive the payment.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121158196#Comment_121158196

Everybody over 70 gets a GP Visit card.

The mean-test for the med card over 70 is much more generous than the under 70s means-test.