Jon Venables

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121148433#Comment_121148433

Where's the evidence I can't understand it? Oh yeah none.

If using the tactic of deciding who someone is: you lack empathy, you're cold and emotionless. And that's not a reasonable person.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121148412#Comment_121148412

You're the one who's saying stuff to make yourself feel better and "fućking" superior.

Str8outtaWuhan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121148148#Comment_121148148

Yes of a particular variety, there was pressure applied in that particular ethnic community, caused delay in prosecution. Tore her family apart from what I remember.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121148433#Comment_121148433

People can commit horrific acts against others for various reasons, including trauma they've experienced themselves, mental illness and neurological disorders. I have also never ever advocated for revenge punishments by the state. But reasonable people will just be disgusted by the crimes, not downplaying same and acting as if comments on the internet are more bothersome. That's just weird. And yes, anyone who hasn't sexually assaulted and murdered someone is indeed better and superior to anyone who has.

Also, why is it so impossible for someone just to be a horrible person?

Most people won't give a sh1t if Ana's murderers are named, despite the pretence that most people don't want this.

Str8outtaWuhan

There is no such thing as good or evil. All our actions are predetermined by a combination of genetic and environmental triggers. It was in their nature to do what they did. The only way to prevent this from happening again is to make sure they cannot reproduce as that increases the likelihood of those genes surviving. Just look at the proclivities of our own homegrown ethnic minority. It's called disgenetics and it is a real threat.

Lewis_Benson

Closed-circuit television (CCTV) at the New Strand Shopping Centre in Bootle on 12 February 1993 showed Thompson and Venables casually observing children, apparently selecting a target.[8] The boys were playing truant from their local primary school, which they did regularly.[9] Throughout the day, Thompson and Venables were seen shoplifting various items, including sweets, batteries, a troll doll, and a can of blue Humbrol modelling paint.[10] One of the boys later revealed that they were planning to abduct a child, lead him to the busy road alongside the shopping centre, and push him into the oncoming traffic.[11]

That same afternoon, James Bulger, from Kirkby, went with his mother, Denise, to the New Strand Shopping Centre. Whilst inside the A.R. Tym's butcher's shop on the lower floor of the centre at around 15:40, Denise, who had let go of her son's hand to pay for her shopping, realised that her son was missing.[4][12] Thompson and Venables had approached James Bulger, took him by the hand, and led him out of the shopping centre.[13][14] The moment was caught on CCTV at 15:42.[15][16]

Thompson and Venables took Bulger to the Leeds and Liverpool Canal, around 1⁄4 mile (400 metres) from the New Strand Shopping Centre, where they dropped him on his head, and he suffered injuries to his face. The boys joked about pushing Bulger into the canal.[9][17] An eyewitness said that when he saw Bulger at the canal, the boy was "crying his eyes out".[18] The boys went on a 2+1⁄2-mile (4-kilometre) walk across Liverpool; they were seen by around 38 people, but most bystanders did nothing to intervene.[18][19] Two people challenged Thompson and Venables, but they either claimed that Bulger was their brother, or that he was lost, and that they were taking him to a police station.[20] At one point, the boys took Bulger into a pet shop, from which they were ejected.[21]

Eventually, the boys arrived in Walton. With Walton Lane Police Station across the road, they hesitated, then led Bulger up a steep bank to a railway line near the former Walton & Anfield railway station, close to Walton Park Cemetery.[9] One of the boys threw the blue paint that they had shoplifted earlier into Bulger's left eye.[22] They kicked him, stamped on him, and threw bricks and stones at him. They placed batteries in Bulger's mouth[23] and may have inserted some into his anus, although none were found there.[4] Finally, the boys dropped a 10 kg (22 lb) railway fishplate on Bulger.[24][25][26] He sustained 10 skull fractures as a result of the bar striking his head. Pathologist Alan Williams stated that Bulger suffered so many injuries—42 in total—that none could be identified as the fatal blow.[27]

Thompson and Venables laid James Bulger across the railway tracks and weighted his head down with rubble, hoping that a train would hit him and his death would be ruled an accident. After they left the scene, his body was cut in half by a train.[28] Bulger's severed body was discovered by a group of children two days later.[29][9][30] A forensic pathologist testified that Bulger died before he was struck by the train.[28]

Police suspected that the boys had sexually assaulted Bulger, as his shoes, socks, trousers, and underpants had been removed. The pathologist's report, which was read out in court, found that Bulger's foreskin had been forcibly pulled back.[24][31] When Thompson and Venables were questioned about this aspect of the attack by detectives and a child psychiatrist, Eileen Vizard, the pair were reluctant to give details.[4][21][32] When Venables was let out on parole, his psychiatrist, Susan Bailey, reported that "visiting and revisiting the issue with Jon as a child, and now as an adolescent, he gives no account of any sexual element to the offence."[4]

Yeah but they didn't know what they were doing.......

L.Ball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121149014#Comment_121149014

The sexual stuff is learned behaviour, because they wouldn't speak on it means there was probably no investigation on their end.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121148763#Comment_121148763

You literally quoted a post where I expressed an emotion, to point out that I am emotionless. Well done.

I am also not sure why you can’t reply to my post once but have to reply to the same post several times, but whatever floats your boat. Be as outraged as you like, because I can see that some more balanced posters did understand what I said earlier.

Nobody downplayed the Bulger murder on this thread. It’s clear that they killed him but their reasons aren’t known.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121149035#Comment_121149035

What possible "reasons" could there be to explain what they did? There arent any. I strongly believe that these 2 were destined to be sick fuckers, it was just sheer bad luck that they happened to meet and egg each other on to commit such an atrocity. Sometimes people really are just bad and I don't think either of them are safe to be released into society.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121149035#Comment_121149035

Replied twice - not "several times". So what? I hit send too early by mistake. It's really not that remarkable or deserving of dishonesty (twice is not several times. The bullsh1t).

What outrage? You can tell yourself otherwise as much as you want, but most people are more bothered by the manner in which James and Ana were murdered than by people posting on the internet that their killers are evil.

There is nothing unbalanced about what I said. I made it clear that there are various reasons for such horrific behaviour and that I've never wished tortuous punishments by the state. I just find it callous and tasteless to be more bothered by angry talk on the internet, and to be making those who are angry out to be the bad guys, as opposed to, you know, the murderers.

True, you do get weirdly annoyed by people being upset by a kid being butchered to death.

JP Liz V1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121149035#Comment_121149035

There is no reason for what they did, no one but them are to blame, sick murderers who should stay locked up for their entire life

NewbridgeIR

@Fr Tod Umptious Weren’t there false accusations at the time? i.e other people being named as being Boy A / B?

Naming the killers would eliminate any speculation. Using a common sense approach - if you print the facts then people won’t speculate.

I presume you have no issue with adult criminals being identified?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121148983#Comment_121148983

How do you know there's no such thing as good or evil? Most people are good - including those who had terrible childhoods. Only a sliver of humanity is capable of what the killers of James and Ana are capable of.

Str8outtaWuhan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121149435#Comment_121149435

Good and evil are human concepts derived from religious origins. They do not exist independently of our conception. It's humans way of trying to explain a simple biological trait.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121149074#Comment_121149074

There were many attempts to try to understand why they killed Bulger the way they did. At the time a lot of focus was put on their chaotic home lives. Look at Thompson in particular and tell me that he grew up in a normal way.

I’m not excusing what they did, but it’s not as simple as “born evil”

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121149144#Comment_121149144

3 times in 30 mins.

I’m not being callous either. There is no benefit in focussing obsessively on the belief that these people are plain evil. And I am talking about Venables and Thompson here, because the Kriegel killing has nothing to do with this thread and it not really comparable.

martingriff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121148983#Comment_121148983

If its genetics why haven't brother sisters or other family members of killers or rapists done the same. In relation to environmental triggers not sure what you mean, yes some have had terrible childhoods so maybe that

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121149415#Comment_121149415

Naming the killers would eliminate any speculation. Using a common sense approach - if you print the facts then people won’t speculate.

It's noble where you are coming from but do you really think "facts" count for much amoung certain people in this day and age, especially in such a case as the Anna Kriégel case ?

JP Liz V1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121149849#Comment_121149849

I'm curious what do you think as "evil"

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121151613#Comment_121151613

“Evil” doesn’t exist outside of moralistic tales and beliefs.

forumdedum

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121143592#Comment_121143592

I will call him James from now on

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121149387#Comment_121149387

Theres always a “reason”- I know of a family who are currently traumatised by their son (mid teens) - he’s attacked them previously and tried to choke one of them on a number of occasions. He has at least one identified mental condition (I won’t say what it is as people will simply jump on me for doing so)- it’s also obvious that he has this mental condition- it’s not uncommon in Ireland these days but it was hard to diagnose in the past.

I do wonder to what degree either or both of these two boys had such a condition or similar - it’s not about excusing their behaviour by the way- more about understanding why this happened. People with the same mental conditions can and do behave differently- some can be very withdrawn and placid- some can present as very aggressive - so even a “label” on either of these two boys, won’t actually “solve” the mystery.

But as a non medical person, I’d like to think that whatever made them do this, was something more rooted in nature than nurture.

Ashbourne hoop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121147643#Comment_121147643

That case must be near 15-20 years ago now?

Become Death

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121149014#Comment_121149014

If I was one of the Bulgers, I don't think I could ever rest easy knowing either of them are breathing.

Even though I knew what happened, reading it is just so utterly saddening and depressing.

Lewis_Benson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121153765#Comment_121153765

Indeed it is.

I would have probably ended up doing time myself if I was James dad.

RocketRaccoon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121152264#Comment_121152264

So you wouldn't consider Hitler evil? Al Qaeda or Isis leaders? Bundy? Gacy? Dahmer?

All just misunderstood and a victim of their circumstances?

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121154280#Comment_121154280

I wouldn’t call them evil but delusional (Hitler), and probably selfish (Bundy, Gary) for prioritising their urges over anything else.

Al Qaeda are simply using religion as a means to control and don’t differ from any other radical sect past or present.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121154280#Comment_121154280

Hard to answer when you don't define what 'evil' is.

What is 'evil' to you? It's actually a very different thing to lots of different people.

Some would have religious connotations, others who who don't and describe it as people being 'born bad' are just using it to describe mental illness. But ironically will then be the first person to castigate you for 'blaming it on mental illness'.

Str8outtaWuhan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121153601#Comment_121153601

Even at the time it was kept fierce quiet.

JP Liz V1

His parole hearing started, hopefully denied

https://www.irishexaminer.com/world/arid-41269048.html