Is the UK now giving off strong Third World vibes?

Jack Daw

I imagine like a lot of countries it will have a downward spiral because of excessive population growth and the issues providing services for everyone because the countries population is too high. It's much easier to manage a smaller population and provide people with a decent standard of living if you have less of them to provide for.

The fact that politicians and policy makers continually want to ignore this problem world wide is quite depressing, we're heading the same way ourselves it's just we were slightly underpopulated for a while so it' ll take longer to impact us but it's coming here also unless we start controlling our population.

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121101932#Comment_121101932

Need to be near the Swedish emissions

Tell me how

Wouldn't go so far as to say '3rd world vibes', but it is definitely in trouble.

Saw a stat a few weeks back that if you take london and its surrounds out of the equation, the UK is poorer than Mississippi. A stat that was debunked to some degree by the Financial Times, but even in doing so, they acknowledged that it was not that far away from being the case.

The biggest concern I would have for the UK is that the hole it is in is so deep, and was dug by people focused on their own gains (cough cough brexiteers) and Thatherites, that it's very difficult to see a way back from where it is right now. And when we see the drop in living standards, coupled with rising interest rates and inflation over the last number of years, Labour have their work cut out in a big way. Unfortunately, I don't think Starmer is forceful enough to develop a plan and to sell it to people for the longer term greater good in the same way Blair was.

The nature of the FPTP voting system means that it has been easy for conservatives to retain power and while they will likely lose it at the next election, immediately they, and the media will switch to the narrative that they could and will do better than Labour and so could likely be back in after just 1 term. This is largely because of the Right leaning nature of British media and how it pretty much runs the tories election campaigns for them.

In a country that has prostrated itself entirely at the behest of the free market, it is left with sewage on its beaches, and the cost of an open return train ticket between London and Manchester being in the hundreds of pounds, I'd be very worried about what is ahead for the NHS, and as a consequence, the people who rely on it.

No one who thought for a second that Brexit was in the UK's best interest has any chance of improving the standard of living of the vast majority of the people living in it. And these people are going to continue to be on scene, and influencing power for tens of years to come.

Shanty towns? Contaminated water that you have to walk miles for?

It doesn't have to meet third world criteria for there to be serious problems there (and there are - in places) but it's still nowhere near third world.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103123#Comment_121103123

Allowing constant waves of asylum immigration is the exact opposite of Brexit principle.

Kind of ironic...

The salient point is that rich countries will not be rich forever, unless they protect their wealth.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103110#Comment_121103110

Depopulation normally means you are are losing your brightest and best whilst older people remain behind - not a shred of evidence that this is good for a country or its economy. Countries which are depopulating quickly are often in deep recession.

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103374#Comment_121103374

Perpetual population growth isn't a good idea either and it puts too much of a strain on a countries resources because generally the problem is the wrong people are having children, the more intelligent and responsible people are the fewer children they have, so the people who should be having children aren't having them but to compensate for this the people who shouldn't be having children are having too many.

I would also argue that technology and it's ability to reduce the workforce will mean depopulation won't be as much of an issue going forward.

Adding endless numbers of people to your country when it clearly can't cope (which is an issue in UK for a while and is one in Ireland now) is not a good idea in my opinion.Continual overall economic growth because of increasing population is not a good way to run a society but it's been mainstream economic thought for a long while and this needs to change.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103310#Comment_121103310

You're correct but the fact that the question can be asked sensibly is damming enough IMO. A dysfunctional voting system, a PM who singlehandedly tanked the economy in a month, sewage in rivers... These aren't things one expects from a first world country.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103374#Comment_121103374

Yep. You breed a workforce or you import it. Decadent conservatives went to war with people having children and are now pushing white nationalism when the predictable consequences ensued.

Francis McM

It is amazing that tens of thousands of migrants are still paying big money to risk their lives crossing the English channel in little rubber boats. In August it was reported that France is intercepting fewer Channel migrants than last year despite a £480 million funding deal with Britain (the British paid of course) to help stop crossings.

Was talking to someone who returned on the ferry from France to Ireland recently and he was telling me he met some smart immigrants on their way from France to the UK but through Ireland. (and N.I. ) wink wink.

Before Brexit it was joked the boats would be going the other way. Things must be pretty bad on the continent for so many tens of thousands to risk their lives and pay big money to try to make the crossing.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103580#Comment_121103580

I'm struggling to think of a single country that has a policy of actively depopulating itself, even as a supposed long term aim. As I said above, anything involving depopulation would mean your youngest, brightest and best leaving the country and older people (their parents and grandparents) remaining behind.

The whole issue of global 'overpopulation' is something that no single government could solve on its own. This would be an issue multiple countries and agencies, including the UN, would have to address. A country proposing harsh anti-immigration laws would just be a meaningless PR stunt.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103862#Comment_121103862

They're not coming from the continent, Francis; they're coming from further afield that that. We know that, since Brexit, as between the UK and the EU net migration flows have been very strongly from the UK to the EU. I can't believe you're unaware of this.

The migrants who attempt to enter the UK in small boats are coming from much further away; they come to the UK through the EU, not from the EU. While the UK press would like to create the impression that all the migrants who enter the EU are on their way to the UK, in fact only a small minority are. The great bulk apply for protection in the EU.

This is one of the problems the Tory government has created for itself. For partisan reasons, it suits them if the right-wing press create the impression that the UK is besieged, that all migrants would come to the UK if they could, that the EU is simply a transit point, etc. In fact, none of this is true. This is a problem for the government because, having bigged up the issue, the public will now expect them to take effective action to address it. The nature of the problem is such that the only action likely to be effective is multilateral, co-operative action. Any chance of the UK making a multilateral deal on migration will undoubtedly involve the UK taking its fair share of migrants, and contributing its fair share towards solutions. That will involve the UK doing rather more than it does now, not less. And the Tories' domestic positioning on this makes it very difficult for them to do that.

Montage of Feck

Definitely not the power they were but hardly third world yet. British engineering and industry has been in decline for decades despite winning the war, which does make me suspect their success was more to do with their ability to exploit the colonies rather than innate ability.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103110#Comment_121103110

I don't think that's true.

We have similar social issues in Ireland with only 10% of the population.

Things are generally ok long as you have enough of the right people in healthcare,education and other civil service jobs. But the UK, like Ireland and a lot of western countries is failing here.

Cant hire nurses and doctors because conditions are bad, can't improve conditions without more nurses and doctors. Cant pay them more to do the sh*t jobs because of the public/private divide and setting a precedent for everyone else.

You're right that huge immigration is straining the system, but it was already under pressure 10 years ago and nothing was done (same as Ireland)

Tell me how

I think this speaking of the UK in the context of 'a house' is a good analogy to describe where the UK is at.

Any house could suffer an issue such as a burst water pipe, a tree falling on the roof or similar and it could look like a disaster, but, it can be restored quite quickly with significant investment and effort.

But some houses have been found to be afflicted with faulty concrete (such as the schools in the Uk, or pyrite scandal in Ireland) and these houses are in big trouble. They will need huge effort and investment to correct the issues, and it won't be done quickly and will create discomfort while the work is being done.

After 13 years of cost cutting and subservience to private companies running national services, and of course Brexit, that is where the UK is at.

The 'house' hasn't been destroyed in a hurricane, or gone up in flames, but it is definitely in trouble.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103931#Comment_121103931

Much of this is a manufactured "crisis" by the right wing press. They know that immigration and refugees winds up their readers, so creating a non existing crisis is great for sales. They went down the same route in the year or two before the referendum, claiming that EU freedom of movement was ruining the UK, as so many migrant workers were arriving.

It also seems to be a great distraction from the failings of the Tory government - the right wing press mostly sees its role as to keep the Tory Party in power and to keep Labour out.

ednwireland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121102830#Comment_121102830

it wasn't a random program though he spent 6 months looking at issues.working with managers/consultants/nurses.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103660#Comment_121103660

Not sure it can be asked sensibly!

Non first world is not the same as third world - there's a whole lot in between. Perhaps it's comparable to Eastern bloc countries (to which "second world" used to be applied) but I dunno. I doubt it.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121105521#Comment_121105521

I think it can.

We spent millions on a pointless ceremony while children use foodbanks. That's one example of something I would expect from a despotic banana republic.

To be clear, the UK is not a third world country but it's not helping itself by acquiring the trappings.

mariaalice

The Red Tops went into a frenzy about Romanians having freedom of movement in the EU Apparently tens of thousands were heading for the UK so after the borders opened the BBC went to an airport to see what was happening, They found two Romanians who had come over.

Parts of the UK are very poor parts are very wealthy much more so than here, How many high-end Italian sports car dealerships are there in Ireland not far outside Manchester there are half a dozen.

Bluefoam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121106075#Comment_121106075

Manchester's population is greater than that of Ireland...

nachouser

One word: Serco.

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103580#Comment_121103580

Yes but as welfare spending is cut and overall health suffers, then western countries will have to boost their childmaking to unbelievable proportions in the hope one or two survive to look after the incapacitated members of the very small numbers of the family that survive.

Then we can look forward to people in Africa filling envelopes with coins for "white babies" and sending groups over to educate westerners on responsible population control :-)

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121104236#Comment_121104236

Starmer was hand picked by the British establishment to replace the Tories. If they had have got Corbyn out before the last election they would have rowed in behind Starmer and labour would now be in government.

None of this instills any confidence that Starmer will do anything significant to improve Britain.

The abject collapse of the Tories under incompetence and corruption is not what the establishment wanted at all.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121106174#Comment_121106174

It isn't. It's barely over half and that's Greater Manchester.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121106310#Comment_121106310

New Labour did plenty for Britain between 1997-2010. They gutted A&E wait times, sent record amounts of people to university, invested heavily in the NHS, the Good Friday Agreement, devolution, etc.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121106323#Comment_121106323

Starmer has no platform comparable to new labour, he has made a virtue of having virtually no platform at all.

Whatever the question is Starmer is not the answer.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121106343#Comment_121106343

True but given the fools running the show now, I'll take almost anything else except the Greens and the further right.

Fuascailteoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103079#Comment_121103079

The rubbish thing always struck me as well. Even in parts on London you have old beds and tvs stacked in front gardens and have obviously been there for a long time. Same thing replicated in parts if different cities.

Slightly Kwackers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103862#Comment_121103862

A bit of a bonus when you steal from the entire world and provide passports to people never travelling outside their villages in exchange for goods is that when you get new inventions transport wise, a lot of those passport holders and their descendants put them to use.

Of course when their descendants who no longer get to swap goods for citizenship want to run from the shell of a country left, they head for family or a similar culture, as anyone would.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121106343#Comment_121106343

He seems very, very weak compared to Tony Blair. He doesn't appear to have any policies of his own bar saying he is "not the Tories". His obvious terror of offending the Red Wall (cannot criticise Brexit or say anything positive about immigration for example) makes him look an ineffective leader.

jetsonx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121106958#Comment_121106958

Unfortunately, the minute he opens his mouth, he comes across as weak.

The fact that he doesn't have any policies of his own makes him look even weaker.

And he always seems afraid to break rank on anything on any topic.

Truth be told, he's not a real leader.