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Change to derogation

  • 11-09-2023 8:40am
    Registered Users Posts: 16,893 ✭✭✭✭

    As of now we seem to know the lay of the land. From next January the derogation is reduced from 250to 220 a bit with a 10% reduction. This year from a dairying POV banding came I. That probably had a similar effect reducing cow numbers by on some farms by 10&20% depending on the level of production per cow. We also last year had the change to slurry export where the volume exported increase by 100%

    However the derogation effects more than just dairy farmers it will also probably effect larger feedlot and beef units. I wound be borderline derogation time haveinga to export a tanker or two to manage to stay under 170kgs N/HA.

    There seems to be a bit of a general panic about it by some producers. While this came out of the blue (admittedly we did have a blue moon a couple nights last week) most other changes to farming have been signposted it's just lads do not adjust there system to prepare for them ( eg the calf sale age and export age coming down the line)

    The IFA have lost its ability to lobby effectively. While technically it's numbers have not declined significantly it has lost the connection to West of Ireland farmers who have moved to the INHFA, smaller beef producers to BP and it offshoots as well as the ICSA. ICMSA seems to be holding it own core support and now IFA has turned on that heckling it's delegates as Scabs who entered a meeting with the department last week. It also turned on the Macra President where some questioned the suitability of the Macra President to hold the post because she was female. This from a organisation where a presidential candidate suggested the ''flying calves''

    My own opinion is that dairying will have to rationalise to an extent. Continual expansion no longer an option. Land is effectively the new quota with an acre of land effectively a quota to produce 5.5-6k L of milk probably at a turnover in the short to medium term a of 2-3k euro per acre.

    At this price @300/ acres land rental is costing 5-5 5/ L of milk produced

    400/acre = 6.5-7.2c/L

    500/acre = 8-9c/L.

    As well it seems the minister is going to give tillage farmers a carbon payment that will give them a competitive advantage when renting land. Mind you land leasing rules gave dairy farmers a competitive advantage over beef farmers for the last ten years.

    For feedlot owners many based in tillage area this will change the game as well. While many had slurry export plans in place if they exceeded 250kgs, they now face a further export requirements as well as a doubling of volume required. The demand for land area to spread will raise the cost. Importers will probably now require volume imported to be delivered ( remember last year where charge costs increased to importers in some situations as fertilizer prices increased). This will limit the ability of many system to avoid rationalisation. Remember there were farmers above 250/HA who previously exported slurry. These now need 4-5 times the land area they exported to.

    The old Chinese curse comes to mind '' that you might live in interesting times'' just as an add on I put up a poll for all farmers to vote on

    Slava Ukrainii

    Change to derogation 80 votes

    Bad decision
    17% 14 votes
    Good decision
    58% 47 votes
    It's immaterial
    23% 19 votes



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,945 ✭✭✭jaymla627

    Ifac have all the legwork down on the actual costs to farms with derogation cut to 220kgs/banding scenarios included

    Rationalisation really doesn't work in modern day dairying, the prevailing trend worldwide is bigger units to spread your variable/fixed costs over and keep the business performing, for good our bad the EU/Irish government are shutting down intensive agriculture in this country, effectively Irish dairy/intensive beef farmers are operating under a new quota system now that's getting progressively worse year on year in regards to nitrates, it will lead to probably a 25-30% drop in cattle numbers in the next decade and a generational problem where young people will be put of going into farming as their hands are tied re expanding/growing herd size, the knock on effects on employment in rural areas and further decay in rural villages and towns will accelerate too....

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,102 ✭✭✭Siamsa Sessions

    Have any stats been published on the herd size of farms in derogation?

    The perception is that it's all big super herds (big greedy dairy farmers, etc.) but what's the reality? Is it mostly people with 60-70 cows?

    IFA seem to be trying to claim derogation will impact all farmers, and it will to an extent, but they're doing no one any favours saying "We're all in this together".

    A few basic stats might help.

    Trading as Sullivan’s Farm on YouTube

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,062 ✭✭✭✭Danzy

    This is the reality, an ideological opposition to agriculture is at the heart of most of the politics across Western Europe.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 868 ✭✭✭bb12

    the reality is this is all an agenda to get rid of all small farms and pretty much every individual farmer...they want corporations in control of all the food while the farm land prices may collapse, the big boys are patiently waiting in the wings to snap every last piece of it up..they've got all the time in the world and in the meantime are actually funnelling and organising the slow collapse.

    happening everywhere in the western world...look at how the amish are being attacked in the US..a chemical derailment that destroys the soil for hundreds of years right in the heart of amish farmland...regulations to stop them selling meat and produce to the public with the threat of huge jail sentences....not to mention the dutch farmers...these boys are starting small and slowly working their way up the ladder..

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭Shoog

    Plenty of beef and dairy farmers using copious amounts of artificial fertilizer.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 912 ✭✭✭minerleague

    Is it possible to move from 250kg H/ ha to 220 just by exporting slurry? Good few new organic farmers now can take slurry from conventional farms I believe ( as well as tillage farmers? )

    edit to say just see now this was answered in beef price thread already

    Post edited by minerleague on

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,681 Mod ✭✭✭✭K.G.

    I wonder could you dna the pollution in the water to see where the pollution came would conclusively prove where the issues are coming from

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭Shoog

    The fact that the decline in water quality tracks both the areas where intensive beef/diary takes place and worsens in lock step with cattle numbers increasing is the basis of the attribution.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭Shoog

    If you mean I would like to see pollution end then yes I have my own agenda.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭Shoog

    Thats not whats been discussed here and that not by any stretch the primary cause of water pollution - so I wont be diverting down that track for your pleasure. It does no one any favour to deny the issue and its primary cause. It seems that every farmer in the land thinks that the EU are fools and their scientists vindictive - not a good look.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭Shoog

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,728 ✭✭✭SuperTortoise

    Cutting of nitrates is of course the new quota system, anyone that could'nt see that coming with the last number of years must be asleep.

    As a small beef farmer it does'nt effect me YET, but it will in the very near future as the limits are reduced year on year.

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,871 ✭✭✭Grueller

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,871 ✭✭✭Grueller

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,893 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves

    Not unless you are above 170 kgsN/HA, I cannot see it effecting my system much in the next ten years I actually think there is a good chance that the 220 will stay or only be minimally reduced in 2026.

    Slava Ukrainii

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,388 ✭✭✭roosterman71

    On this @Bass Reeves

    Exporting slurry has a cost. One you are exporting a valuable resourse and its unlikly that any importer from now on will make much of a contribution towards the cost. With slurry now you only export 2.4 kgs of N/cubic meter that is about 11 units/1k gallons I think. So to get under 220 from the 250 you would need nearly 3K gallons/HA. On a 150 acre dairy unit that is about 175K gallon approx I think.

    Where is the cost? If you have too much slurry, or are already index 3/4 for P then you simply have to get rid of it or reduce cattle numbers. There's only a cost if you reduce numbers. Exporting slurry over your limit and can't use isn't a cost unless you are paying for it to be exported. Any farmer now over the limit and trying to ride neighbouring farmers who import their slurry by charging them to take what is essentially waste should be told to go **** themselves.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,475 ✭✭✭GrasstoMilk

    we have a weak minister

    hoe come markey can get this commitment and our minister can’t ?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,672 ✭✭✭alps

    You just don't know who to believe at this stage.