Army-Land Component

jonnybigwallet

Expensive machine...I wonder how many they are after?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121578208#Comment_121578208

I doubt we would order enough to make a production line viable.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121579081#Comment_121579081

Yeah thats true you would probably need high production numbers. That was one of the problems with the orginal Timoney APCs they didnt make enoght to iron out the issues. But maybe if an order of 50 went in and that included a 20 year maintance contract for medium and heavy services could make it viable and also wouls take pressure of the army service crews

Larbre34

50 is not viable.

GDELS-Mowag in Switzerland has produced over 30,000 vehicles across its range in the last 53 years. It employs 750 head to build, maintain and mid-life refurb its models. Thats what viability looks like.

If Mowag weren't part of General Dynamics now, they wouldn't even be in the Top 10 of global armoured carrier makers.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121579170#Comment_121579170

The Timoneys were fundamentally awful, no 'ironing out' was going to save them. Vickers tried a complete re-design with the Valkyr, and they couldn't get any sales with that either. I did a video review of the BDX (Timoney Mk V), which was terrible as it was, and a few Irish users chimed in with their (negative) experiences. A Belgian instructor chimed in as well, he hated the things.

I've been reached out to by a lad in Timoney after I released the video, he says there are interesting stories to be told about the design process back in the day for the thing to be told down the pub. I may not have time on my next trip, but I look forward to it.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121585324#Comment_121585324

I seen that video it looked like a lot of fun to get in and out off. The RG 32 replacement programme is well underway but i dont think there are too many options there for replacement unlike the mowags. You said before there would be an issue with boxer due to the size of it on irish roads.

What do you see as the replacement could it be the Piranha V but it is not far off the size of the boxer.

Is there many cars out there the size of the current Mowag that will give the armour requirement needed?

Dohvolle

The thing with the Timoney Mk IV and VI in irish service was, they offered nothing the Panhard M3 didn't already do, and the M3 was already a 20 year old design by then.

Timoney BDX were basically trying to re-invent the wheel, in wheeled APC terms. I'm old enough to have done dismount drills on the M3, and compared to the Timoney, it's doors were huge. There was no such thing as a rapid exit, as you waited your turn to depart the car. The timoney had as well as smaller doors, less doors. If you are wearing an izzy helmet, Flak jacket 58 pattern webbing and carrying an FN, certain gymnastics were required to get out the doors provided. The best thing about the Mk VI was the CL turret.

Mk IV

Mk VI

I estimate the last person entering to be one of the smallest people in the army, as the overall hull height (as demonstrated by Manic Moran) is just 6 foot 9. The FAL they carry is just 42 inches long, or 3 foot 6. Using it as a scale they are no more than 4 foot 9, maybe 4 foot 10 with a helmet.

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121585505#Comment_121585505

I'd argue there are a good few LTAV replacement options. Depends on how you want to go...for instance the JLTV is very poplar in Europe right now

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121585505#Comment_121585505

No. And it’s an identified problem according to one Cav Corps officer I was speaking to last year at a vehicle conference in the US. Which reminds me, I need to check just how big the new USMC thingies are…

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121586690#Comment_121586690

Oh the Cavalry they could be another unit for the chop in the new army as what is there role and value to the defence forces?

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121586690#Comment_121586690

The ACV...isn't that around the 30 Ton mark in weight?

Manic Moran

35, but I was thinking more like the ARV entries. Cottonmouth is a half meter shorter than Boxer or Piranha V, and 7cm narrower. Compared to the current MOWAGs, it's about a half-meter longer and 7cm wider. So it splits the size difference.

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121588785#Comment_121588785

16.5 tons but only 5 dismounts...

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121589031#Comment_121589031

New doctrine apparently. Split the squad evenly. You were doing it with Bradley anyway.

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121589165#Comment_121589165

Cottonmouth is fairly wee..middle.

Dohvolle

You were already losing a few squad members in the USMC LAV. This balances it out.

roadmaster

Is the defence forces 9 man section designed around the size of the APC thats in use or is it visa versa?

roadmaster

This weeks who wants to be an Army HQ

https://www.westmeathindependent.ie/2024/01/15/athlone-barracks-chief-would-welcome-army-hq-designation/

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595969#Comment_121595969

There are 10 troop seats in a Mowag APC.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626721#Comment_121626721

In Other news, I would welcome the opportunity to be Sofia Vergara's new Husband. However I believe my wife and her current partner may have something to say about this first, not to mention Sofia herself.

When you read the article, that's not even what he said.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121627866#Comment_121627866

I know the Commission Report says the Army HQ should be geographicaly located in the center of Ireland but untill the office of Army Force design completes its work to layout the plan for the army there will be no anouncement

Larbre34

There is no compulsion to follow that recommendation. In fact, with modern communications, I fail to see what geographical location has to do with anything much. After all we are talking about an administrative and planning headquarters, not a base of men and equipment.

It should be in a location that offers the new complex excellent security, excellent communications, excellent ground and water conditions and with lots of buffer space for future expansion, and to isolate it from non-military lands.

I don't think that really any of that is available in Athlone, especially if existing Units are to be left in place there.

I'd build it on the Curragh, south of the main Camp, either east or west of the Brownstown Road.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121644011#Comment_121644011

Build it on the bloody Curragh Golf course.

Joking aside, Plenty of space in DFTC for a modern secure HQ facility. We need to let go of the Relics of British 19th Century civil engineering. If the British cared as much, they wouldn't have demolished their buildings of similar vintage soon after WW2.

We are using buildings that were intended to sleep thousands of empire troops, who would after a short period, move to some other similar sized barracks elsewhere in the British Empire. This is no longer the purpose of barracks. Soldiers don't as a rule reside within the barracks for the duration of service, as was the case with the forces of occupation.

What we require now is the same as what any commercial entity requires to function. Rooms for administrators, secure storage for all things to do with soldiering, whether it be military or non military in nature. And spaces for those to carry out their routine duties. Lockers to store all their equipment safely.Yes a certain amount of sleeping accommodation will be necessary for certain courses where this is required, but you won't need bedding for the entire unit. On the day you do, that's what kip mats and sleeping bags are for. Coolmoney Camp has it almost right at present. Huts for sleeping troops (I'm told about 500). Dining hall for eating and nothing else. Mess for socialising(is you have the energy), and a handful of other indoor spaces for briefings, admin etc.

roadmaster

For all we know this army force design office might come back and say we only need 4 army bases

roadmaster

Interesting comments about the new the APC replacement and he seams to be indicating wheeled Artillery also.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/03/01/the-ship-is-turning-i-have-never-been-more-optimistic-than-i-am-today/

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121835520#Comment_121835520

I suppose all we can do is wait and see what the tender comes out with whenever it comes out...

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121835520#Comment_121835520

We already have wheeled artillery.

Unless you mean self propelled artillery, of which we have none.

Austria is paying GDELS an average of €8m per vehicle for its new family of 225 Pandur armoured vehicles in various configurations. Everyone is ramping up production, there needs to be fast action to tender for, evaluate, select and fund whatever ambitions there are, and we haven't even got the people we need yet.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121837016#Comment_121837016

Yes self propelled. I presume thats what he means by this.

on the way are armoured artillery units, which means if the Defence Forces are tasked with returning to African countries such as Chad or Mali, “we will have our own force protection with us. We’re talking about a very significant shift in gears,” he says.

Are the 105s back in action?

mupper2

I doubt he was talking about armoured trains☺️

I've said it before and I'm no sage but the days of rucking up to a PK/PE etc mission and all you have to worry about are lads with rusty AKs and maybe a barely functional T-55 are going if not gone.

Africa is becoming awash in Russian, Saudi, UAE and especially Chinese kit. UAVs/FPV drones, ATGWS, modern arty etc etc.

M23 backed by Rwanda is using guided artillery/mortar rounds and armed UAVs in the Congo war.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121837689#Comment_121837689

I mean really we've been lucky in recent times that we haven't had any serious loss of life, but yeah. When you look from Ukraine to Africa to Asia, the scale of threats has massively increased as has the ease of procurement/manufacturing. Rocking up with MOWAGs isn't really going to cut it if we are to keep doing these missions.

But like the MRV/Radar/new Helicopters its still a bit of "Jam Tomorrow" at the moment...