Redrawing county boundaries

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121034822#Comment_121034822

Bring back the 1300s! 😂

The one useful thing that I've gotten from this thread is that it would make sense to force county councils to more closely cooperate with their neighbours for matters that go beyond the county borders.

There seems to be areas of the country where people probably feel closer to a neighbouring county than their own, and possibly feel let down by their own council

In one sense, there's a very good argument that anything beyond the county borders is a job for the government.

However, it seems the councils are quick to claim infringment when the government steps into their domain of responsibility, and pass the buck when they're not bothered doing something

So it would seem there's value in forcing representatives of certain aspects of the councils and government to sit in a room once a month and try to get some consensus on some of the wider issues

This would be similar to how there's an EU level council if all the finance ministers across the union to make sure they're all on a similar page regarding monetary policy

You don't need to involve every council or department in every decision, I doubt Cork or Donegal councils care much about the Royal Canal Greenway for example.

But in general good things happen when you can get people to talk to each other and work to find a consensus and I think it's something that is lacking from Irish politics

And to be 100% clear to the OP, redrawing the county boundaries wouldn't fix any of that and their idea is dumb to begin with

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121034152#Comment_121034152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121034294#Comment_121034294

You're talking out of ignorance. Go first look at 'Medieval Ireland: Territorial, Political and Economic Divisions' by Paul MacCotter

He gives a description, insofar as it can be known of land division and territory in the periods before and after you refer. He traces at least some of the Gaelic territories and shows that they substantially formed the subsequent baronies. The baronies in time were amalgamated into counties.

Humans have always built on what has gone before, adapting to it to their new requirements. So in fact you can argue that the counties and most certainly the baronies have a tangible link in many instances to the pre Norman period.

There was no arbitrariness or stroke of a pen about it, despite what suits certain modern narratives.

Furze99

I agree by the way that there are far too many borders in the country. If I had my way for some future solution, I'd abolish all the current local authorities as such. And replace with 5 regional bodies - Ulster, Leinster*, Munster, Connacht and Greater Dublin*

Leinster* being the present counties minus Greater Dublin. Greater Dublin* to be defined.

dublincc2

In addition reducing the number of local authorities is an efficient strategy.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121035718#Comment_121035718

The number of LA has already been reduced from 114 to 31.

31 is not too many.

Our LA are large compared to most EU countries.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121036426#Comment_121036426

Good auld France. Where every crossroads has a town hall and a mayor 🤣

Geuze

Yes, I think I recall they have 30,000+ local governments!!!!!

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121034294#Comment_121034294

I'll take that as a "Yes" then.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121036426#Comment_121036426

The data is somewhat misleading. We only have one level of local government, most other countries have several.

blanch152

An interesting thread with a lot of ideas and concepts, some conflicting and some diverse, topped off by a crazy OP. Some observations on the county border issue.

(1) County boundaries have been changed before, Dun Laoghaire Borough and Dublin Coporation and Dublin County Council replaced by four local authorities for example. Tipperary North Riding and South Riding merged to form Tipperary County Council.

(2) Counties have been merged in other area, see the replacement of 33 VECs based on county boundaries by 16 ETBs.

(3) County boundaries have been breached for contiguous area in respect of electoral reasons.

So there are precedents for change, yet as has been pointed out on the thread already, some good reasons for change would need to be advanced. to that end, I would look to the NDP. Five cities - Dublin, Cork, Waterford, Limerick and Galway - have been identified for coherent growth and planning. Are current county boundaries suitable to this plan? If not, that is a good reason to change. Ditto the regional centres planned for Sligo, Athlone, Drogheda, Dundalk and Letterkenny - do these small cities/large towns need urban councils tat cross county boundaries to deliver on NDP objectives? These are questions that politicians shy away from, but that discussions like this can consider.

Finally, county boundary changes don't need to be replicated in the GAA.

Geuze

I am all for more inter-municipal co-operation, but keep the existing 31 LA.

Already, Laois run payroll, Limerick runs HAP.

The two Galway LA have one library service and one fire service.

More of this please.

If an activity needs scale to achieve efficiency, then more LA should co-operate.

I am against taking functions away from LA, like water.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121033877#Comment_121033877

So you're in favour of British designed boundaries that have been changed multiple times then? Rather at odds with other posting.

Risteard81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043415#Comment_121043415

No - however our counties have long been accepted and adopted by the Irish People. There is no good reason to change them now. All we need is all 32-Counties completely free from British rule and any other foreign rule (including so-called "EU" rule).

Field east

Kanother ex of The King With No Clothes

UTTER MADNESS. It is incredible that the only solution to an increase in population - from a political / representative view point - is to increase the No of TDs’. Who and when was it decided that each lot of 30,000 should be represented by one TD? . At the time that decision was made , the average TD probably did not own a car but may have an access to one. Bicycles would have been the mode of transport. Mob phones were not even a word. Most houses did not have a phone. Meetings to address crowds - eg during election time - were announced from alters or equivalent and via posters put up in prominent places. This involved a lot of individuals, a lot of travel , a lot of time, etc. I would expect that a lot of the above activity was carried out during very wet weather at times and individuals would have got soaked

Now , the same objective that the above was trying to achieve - and even others- can be done by THE CLICK OF A BUTTON and not even moving out of the office. - using all the abilities of the ICT that are out there.

Any TD can reach any voter in seconds or failing that can reach same through post the following day.

Imagine the downside of the increase in the No of TDS by 15

:-extra expenditure through salaries , offices, expenses re mileage , accommodation, etc, etc.

-an even more extricate system of trying to accommodate all the TDS so that they can all have their say and the extra time this will take

-the extra expenditure that will ensue as the extra TDS will want projects developed in their areas

the ONLY WINNERS Here are the poloiical parties - at least some of them

I wonder how independant is the Elecroral commission from the political establishment?

it’s of interest that the Citizens Assembly has not been asked to look at the whole area of representation and examining ‘ Beat Practice ‘ in other European countries.

Larbre34

The Constitution did. Do keep up.

The main parties acknowledge that it is not feasible for the Dáil to keep increasing and that a referendum to amend the Constitution accordingly will be put to the people in the next Dáil, somewhere between 2025 and 2030.

So it is likely that the number of TDs may go to 174 and stay that way indefinitely.

In my opinion, this matter should not be addressed without the overdue Seanad reform we were promised in the wake of the rejection of the Seanad abolition referendum, a decade ago.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121046658#Comment_121046658

Sadly, this isn't a thread about the redrawing of the electoral constituencies.

No, this is a thread that someone decided to create suggesting that actual county boundaries (of counties that they're not from of course) should be altered.

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121047024#Comment_121047024

I don’t agree with changing county boundaries- they are far too ingrained in peoples psyche and would cause a whole lot of trouble for questionable gain. The LA areas however do merit alterations but cannot be done if it’s one up manship one county taking over a bit of another one-need to be like the North where it becomes Mourne and district, Moyle etc

hotmail.com

It does seem crazy that they want us to accept an extra 14 TDs.

Should they not have a referendum to ensure there is no increase in politicians.

So many TDs pass by with no achievements and do nothing. Are we expected to swallow even more of this?

Bullocks

More TDs is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while. I don't usually get up or down about politics but this is maddening me every time I think about it.

Because some ancient constitution says x amount of people can only grow so big until they need another representative does that mean we have to go straight and do that?

Does the bigger population not need similar extra healthcare, teachers or police?

How well there isn't a mention of the difficulty in getting the extra TDs and associated costs to us but there is every excuse under the sun given why there isn't enough budget ever given to recruit enough new nurses?

Does anyone think these 14 new representives will make the country better than it was before? I highly doubt it.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050296#Comment_121050296

https://nuvo.ie/2022/11/23/healthcare-employment-statistics-2022/#:~:text=The%20highest%20increase%20in%20workers,December%202019%20and%20September%202022.&text=These%20job%20role%20groups%20are,Survey%2C%20published%20by%20the%20HSE.

But we have seen extra jobs in healthcare. The number of people working in the health system grew by 12.9% in three years from 2019 to 2022. The same for teachers.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/5c9c2-ministers-harris-and-foley-announce-publication-of-education-indicators-for-ireland-2022/#:~:text=the%20total%20number%20of%20teachers,2017%20to%2022.8%20in%202021

Findings for Primary and Post-primary Education include:

• the total number of teachers has risen by over 7,800 since 2017, from 64,692 to 72,496
• the pupil-to-teacher ratio at primary level has fallen from 15.3 to 13.7 since 2017, while in post-primary it has fallen from 12.8 to 12.2
• average class sizes at primary level have fallen from 24.5 in 2017 to 22.8 in 2021

14 TDs are a drop in the ocean compared to those increases.

Bullocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050410#Comment_121050410

Ya, the health service is lovely going by those figures, they don't mean as much if you are sick and waiting in a corridor in A&E to be seen. Or indeed if there is no service to bring a special needs child to school this week it must be reassuring to know that there will be 14 more TDs coming down the line to put their shoulders to the wheel.

The costs of 14 TDs is far from a drop in the ocean to the average Jo, IMO the idea of 14 extra TDs should be dropped in the ocean and their buddies that are already sitting in the Dáil should be working harder to get better results for the huge amount of people that really struggling

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050937#Comment_121050937

The costs of 14 TDs is far from a drop in the ocean to the average Jo

It's about 30c per person, a portion of which goes back to the exchequer anyway.

Nonetheless, this thread isn't actually about the redistricting, it was about a significantly worse idea.

Bullocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051093#Comment_121051093

That 30c per person would be better spent on nurses and guards rather than TDs, I'd say they would get a few more than 14 of either professions too

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050296#Comment_121050296

There have been huge increases in the numbers of nurses and doctors.

Bullocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083325#Comment_121083325

There's been a huge amount of people waiting on trolleys in A and E and huge waiting lists for simple procedures as well.

PeaSea

It's a great idea. You wouldn't want something this good to get lost, so probably best to get the ball rolling on it. I suggest in the first instance to take a clipboard to the streets of Magherafelt some Saturday and survey local opinion on the prospect of the area being in Tyrone. Do let us know how you get on.

dublincc2

I’ve made an improved map of the readjusted county boundaries:

Westmeath and Wicklow are reinstated though in slightly different forms.

Offaly and Laois as they currently are remain partitioned, with the western part of the former going to Westmeath and the southern part to Tipp. The actual territory of Offaly is partially recreated sans the areas that fall within Kildare as this would be too much of an impact to that county.

Laois is split between Kilkenny, Offaly and the rump Laois remaining to the southeast of the present county.

Wicklow is recreated, though smaller. The border between Wicklow and Dublin is the Three Trouts river, meaning settlements already effectively part of Dublin like Bray and Greystones remain in that county. The new Wicklow River encompasses the rest of todays Wicklow apart from Arklow and (possibly) Shillelagh.

Wexford is split into two, with the Slaney forming most of the boundary with the new county of Ferns. Ferns includes the remaining parts of Wicklow including Arklow and (possibly) Shillelagh.

Shillelagh TBH is a toss up between the counties of Carlow, Ferns and Wicklow. I couldn’t decide so just put it into Ferns. The river in Arklow is the northern boundary of Ferns.

I believe the above changes have numerous benefits including more locally focused authorities as opposed to the larger counties I made in the OP. Again it seeks to follow historical Gaelic boundaries as much as possible.