Calling yourself British.

dinorebel

I'm English and have lived in Ireland for 30 years (I'm 60 so half my life) I'm confused with the idea of people calling themselves British not one person I know either English, Scottish or Welsh calls or identifies themselves as British if asked we're English , Scottish or Welsh why does the Unionist community claim this identity as uniquely belonging to them?

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058310581/calling-yourself-british

You're a British mate. You are English too, which part of Britain. People typically identify with multiple geographic areas. If somebody is considers themselves Texan, they are still American.

Also, I'm highly doubtful that you don't know anybody that refers to being British. Identifying as a "Brit" is pretty common in pop culture. The biggest airline line in the UK is obvious British Airways. The idea that nobody claims really claims to be British is laughable.

seenitall

I remember meeting someone years ago, who was brought up in the south of England (complete with the accent), born by Irish parents (actually, there seems to be no shortage of such people around here, the west of Ireland). I was curious to know what nationality he saw himself as, and he said British. I tried to tease it out a little bit, why would he feel that rather than English for example, but he wasn’t very interested in the subject. My best guess would be that people like himself feel neither one or the other, neither English or Irish - too English-accented for Ireland, and not “Englander” enough for England. So they choose this third identity as the only other option? Maybe.

My point is that some circumstances in people’s lives like the above could present a motivation for feeling British. Possibly!

Flinty997

The census disagrees with you...

"...More than half of the usual resident population (54.8%, 32.7 million) chose a "British" only national identity in 2021, which is a rise of 35.8 percentage points from 19.1% (10.7 million) in 2011. The opposite trend was seen for the "English" only identity. This fell by 42.8 percentage points, from 57.7% (32.4 million) in 2011 to 14.9% (8.9 million) in 2021..."

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/ethnicity/bulletins/nationalidentityenglandandwales/census2021#national-identities-in-england-and-wales

I assume Brexit and other recent events have had an effect.

Mrs OBumble

The Scots people I know would not identify as British because they would be extremely happy if an independence vote was successful.

Str8outtaWuhan

The new LLS presenter identifies as British and he was born on the island of Ireland 🙄.

slay55

I would identify myself as British. From an island of the British mainland.

By default , I consider myself British first and foremost

Eggs For Dinner

Asking why the Unionists in the North do what they do is an imponderable question

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019321#Comment_121019321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019528#Comment_121019528

Who represents you in international football?

jeremyr62

Don't think it matters either way. I was born in England lived there for 30 years and now I have lived in Ireland for 31 years. If asked, which is mainly when I get off the ferry in Dublin Port, I identify as British. I consider England more as a geographical description.

Grayson

I remember reading that the children or grand children of emigrants were more likely to use british than english. It's a more inclusive term.

iniscealtra

What does British mean though? It always seems to mean English culture when explained. The tropes you hear anyway. The fancy English accent associated with it, afternoon tea etc. Is it just colonisation of the cultures of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland by trying to encourage them to be more ‘English’ ?

fergiesfolly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019555#Comment_121019555

I'd imagine that's something to do with it. The English get very "British" jingoistic when they might need the help of fellow Britons...war, national disaster, any sport where the English aren't strong enough by themselves.

pauly58

Try telling a Welshman that he's British.

slay55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019534#Comment_121019534

Scotland but we have little connection , we fly the Norwegian flag more

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019321#Comment_121019321

It's more unusual under 60 and really only surviving among the non native population, really strong in the Asian community as an identity.

fergiesfolly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019602#Comment_121019602

Just point to a map.

Wales is not a real country anyway. As useless as the Scots were at independence, at least they had a vote. The Welsh can't even be bothered with that. The principality of Wales. I know they've asked to stop being called that, but that's all they are really. A principality. Can there be a more insulting title for a nation.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019620#Comment_121019620

Not at all. Per the 2021 Census of England and Wales

• 54.8% of the population identify as British, and only as British. (This is sharply up from 2011, when only 19.1% did so.)
• 14.5% identify as British and also as English, Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish. (2011: 9.3%)
• 16.9% of the population identified as English, Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish, but not as British. (2011: 62.4%)
• 9.7% claimed only a non-UK identity (2011: 8.0%)

So we can see a very strong trend towards identifying as British, and away from identifying as English, Welsh, etc. It's far too big a trend to be accounted for by the Asian/non-native community.

I haven't see a breakdown by age, but the trend is also far to be big to be accounted for only by the over-60s.

The Scottish census might show a different picture; I haven't checked. But the disparity in size between the Scottish and English/Welsh populations means that even if it is different it won't affect the overall UK trend very much.

magicbastarder

54.8% of the population identify as British, and only as British. (This is sharply up from 2011, when only 19.1% did so.)

would be curious to see this broken down into (england) and (wales) rather than (england and wales). i suspect the proportion of people in wales identifying only as british is noticeably lower than in england.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019602#Comment_121019602

But he is. Same as Scotland, NI. They aren't countries, they are regions of a country, of a nation state called the UK.

London is their capital whether they pretend otherwise or not.

Only way that changes is independence.

rock22

• @Peregrinus "54.8% of the population identify as British, and only as British. (This is sharply up from 2011, when only 19.1% did so.)

This is an extraordinary change in just ten years and couldn't really be the result of demographic shifts. It would appear to be down to societal (cultural or political ) causes. I wonder has anyone investigated.

Tom Mann Centuria

I'm English, I don't choose to identify as British, what others call me? there's very little I can do about that. I think Britain is on borrowed time, as is hopefully the Monarchy. The ultra polarising right wing Tories have helped speed this all up I think, rather than defend the Union, they've shown Scotland and Wales (and most of England) just how little they're thought of in the South East of England.

As Billy Bragg once sang, Take Down The Union Jack.

https://youtu.be/r5hEKq0u5I8?si=SbPb0g2TWre5IbfI

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019690#Comment_121019690

I don't have the figures. But bear in mind that a lot of people in Wales are not, in fact, Welsh by birth or descent; they are English people who have moved to Wales. They might be more likely to describe themselves as British rather than English or Welsh.

J.O. Farmer

Technically is the UK not the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. This would mean Great Britain is England, Scotland and Wales.

Oscar_Madison

Staunch unionists in NI use the term British all the time as they can’t abide anything “Irish” . I’d imagine even using the term Northern Irish these days grates them - nope, leave people in no doubt as to where we stand I’d say is their motto these days.

Id imagine any immigrants into the UK who gain citizenship would use the term British considering they weren’t born in England or Scotland etc so can’t exactly call themselves English or Scottish.

Thats possibly why there’s an increase in the term being used.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019754#Comment_121019754

Yes, that's right. But "British" is the adjective used to describe things connected with the whole of the UK - the British government, the British army, the British ambassador, British citizens. "United-kingdomish" hasn't caught on, sadly.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019769#Comment_121019769

British passport too

AndyBoBandy

What I don't get is the Unionists up North calling themselves British when Britain is really only the mainland consisting of England, Scotland & Wales.

They can say they are from the U.K. yes, of course, because it's the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland...

I've always been of the impression that to be British, you need to be from Great Britain, which essentially excludes Northern Ireland!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4TeNAT0Uc4

Peregrinus

Ethnicity/national identity is more than just a matter of where you are born. It's mainly a matter of culture/inheritance, though of course these things can be linked to or affected by place of birth.

But the idea that there can be British people who are native to Ireland isn't that unusual, globally. There's an ethnic Germany community native to Russia since the 18th century; an ethnic Hungarian community in Romania, a Greek community in Turkey, an Albanian community in Italy, etc. These are all long-standing settled groups, not the result of recent migration.

Basically, if someone from, say, Antrim thinks he's British, and is regarded by other British people as British, then he's British; that's really the only meaningful definition of "British" that there is.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019804#Comment_121019804

I don’t know is probably the straight answer and you’d have to ask them but my personal view is, the collective term Northern Irish has probably been adopted as a descriptor by people with more moderate or inclusive views of their surroundings and the position they find themselves- likely Protestants but not necessarily so, but certainly with more liberal and inclusive views than orange order members of the unionist community.

If you say you’re Irish, then you’re linked with all cultural things associated with Ireland.

If you say you’re “Northern Irish” , the only thing it does is highlight that you’re from that part of Ireland outside of the 26 counties- because of decades of segregation and discrimination there’s no real identifiable cultural norms and values that incapsulate the entire or most of the population of Northern Ireland.

I think that’s also why the term “British” is probably used that much more in NI- it’s a cultural hook to hang your identity onto.

mariaalice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019542#Comment_121019542

I always ask this question if Ireland was playing England in a rugby match and you were watching what team would you be supporting?

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019804#Comment_121019804

They can say they are from the U.K. yes, of course, because it's the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Can we start calling the unionists Uckish?

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019847#Comment_121019847

And hence the difficulty in identifying as “Northern Irish”- the term means very little these days and those that do identify as Northern Irish more than likely associate with norms and values that are rooted in the unionist traditions as opposed to the nationalist traditions.

The closer we move towards a vote on a united Ireland (I personally dread that day), the more I think, those that want to remain under the UK will vocally identify as British and those that want to unite with Ireland will identify as Irish, again vocally.

Tavrin Callas

Some people seem to be confused, and I guess it is confusing as it's a bit of a quirk, but ...

"Britain" does not include Northern Ireland.

But, "British" does include people from Northern Ireland.

Just look at the demonym section of the Wiki page for the United Kingdom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom

Bluefoam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019932#Comment_121019932

The hardline unionists just want to identify with the former empire... the majority have a Scottish heritage, but thats not a strong enough case to stay in the 'empire' so they #call themselves British to big it up and make it sound like they are part of something bigger...

Hyperbollix

It's a strange one and is probably, like most things, personal to the individual

Reminds me of Noel Gallagher. Depending on the interviewer, he's Irish, doesn't follow the England football team and hates the monarchy. On another day he describes himself as British, played a union jack guitar, strongly identifies with Britpop and that whole Cool Britannia thing in the 90s.

As for why an Irishman like Sammy Wilson, who has spent his life trying to explain to people why he isn't actually Irish when they think he is? There's votes and a career in it.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058310581/calling-yourself-british

I don't think the unionist community up north would say they are exclusively or uniquely British - isn't the whole idea of stating they are British to identify with a great British population across the water? But when you scratch the surface, just as you call yourself English rather than British - the Unionist man/ woman would actually identify more as an Ulsterman or woman. Ulster has it's own culture and imho people from Donegal or Monaghan etc have more in common with those from Antrim or Armagh than they do with Cork or Kerry or Dublin.

Of course we all live on the 'British Isles' too, which is controversial but I've never heard a better alternative collective description, where & if one is needed.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019804#Comment_121019804

I don't know where you got that from The UK consists of the 'UK and NI' = British. To say otherwise is to do what a certain political party does. Which is to pretend that neither the Republic of Ireland, nor Northern Ireland exist.

Intsead they Referring to Northern Ireland as the Six Counties/the North while referring to the Republic of Ireland as 'this State', when in it - or the Irish government when talking about it the representatives of 'this state'.

Because if such a party uses the names NI or the ROI the cognitive dissonance spell is broken.

Regarding the the OP's question I get the impression that is a wind up, you only have to look at the excitement and constant mention of Britons/Team GB during the Olympics etc

mrcheez

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058310581/calling-yourself-british

It might be equivalent to an Irish person identifying as "European"

I doubt most would, unless they are in a situation where they are the only European in a large group

I see sheep

I lived in England for a decade and OP is correct, every British person I knew thought as themselves as English, Scottish or Welsh.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019968#Comment_121019968

100%

depending on who I'm talking to I'm European or Irish. Usually European though!

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058310581/calling-yourself-british

All the English people I know living in Ireland also call themselves English rather than British.

But from an earlier post

"54.8% of the population identify as British, and only as British. (This is sharply up from 2011, when only 19.1% did so.)"

So could it be that this change to using the term British simply happened since you came to Ireland, 30 yrs ago? Would English people coming here in the last ten years more likely use the term 'British' ?

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019628#Comment_121019628

Monaco is a principality. I know many Welsh people who speak their own language and they definately call themselves Welsh not British.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020031#Comment_121020031

Can I ask you a question- were the vast majority of them white?

I’m curious to know just how people from an ethnic minority background might firstly describe themselves vs how a white person with roots in the British Isles going back generations might describe themselves.

Im guessing that someone maybe first “windrush” generation, but born in UK would state British as opposed to “English” ? But very happy to be corrected or educated here too.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020031#Comment_121020031

You are leaving out the second part though many say English/Scottish/Irish or Welsh. But the second part of the answer is many feel British as well you only have to look at Rory Mcllroy. He sees himself as Irish and British. But more British than Irish. Also the golf Tournament he won is called the British Open colloquially known as 'the open'.

The English seem to have varying degrees of Britishness within there own Englishness as well.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/02/14/is-it-the-english-question-or-the-british-question-the-three-strands-of-britishness/

Judging by the above the OP finds themselves in the '15%' = 'English not British'. When taking into account the rest there is about 80% or so of English people who identify with at least some form of 'Britishness'.

saabsaab

See below from 2.40..Ali G on British..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc34JKvCQ3Q

So is you 'ere on 'oliday?

jeremyr62

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019899#Comment_121019899

In those circumstance, England, but again, for me the label barely matters.

snowstorm445

I think you've made a valid point that most people when asked will primarily identify with their country in the UK, and then as British. NI Unionists are the exception as they call themselves British first and foremost, with any other identities coming in distant second (Northern Irish, Ulstermen, even Irish sometimes). You see it a lot with "post-colonial" identities - people from Gibraltar/the Falklands/anywhere general away from the mother country but still identifying with it.

Basically only two sorts of people in the UK primarily identify as British - NI Unionists and ethnic minorities in England who see themselves as British but not English (which seems to regarded as an ethnic identity, unlike in Scotland and Wales where minorities are happy to call themselves Scottish or Welsh). I think this map illustrates it pretty well.

jeremyr62

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019773#Comment_121019773

I hear UK passport used a lot, so not so clear cut on that one.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020083#Comment_121020083

Could that be a nationalist thing I wonder- being “English” is all that matters to me- Using the label “British” dilutes my identity and it becomes shared with other regions I don’t necessarily identify with -“ “English” is my most pure form of identity and it’s the only label I wish to identify with? “

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020083#Comment_121020083

As I’ve said above I think the more ethnically diverse you are, the more likely you are to use the term “British” vs English, Scottish etc

Possibly native Scots and Welsh are more welcoming of ethnically diverse people and willing to assimilate them into their culture vs the “English” - as a result, those who have lived for now generations in either Wales or Scotland are more inclined to call themselves Scottish or Welsh.

Also interesting that NI doesn’t have a good track record of cultural assimilation of other ethnicities- whilst there are people from other countries living in NI, the numbers are much smaller and given the population, and there appears to be a significant level of attacks on those from an ethnically diverse background on a per population basis. Also, the lack of ethnically diverse people in public roles has also been observed.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5802/cmselect/cmniaf/159/report.html#heading-3