Self Defence from dog

Whatwicklow

Dog off lead in the national park

Dog 30 meters away from owner

Dog gallops up to father (on foot) child on bicycle

Child falls off bike

Dog jumps to the child

Child screaming

Father boots the dog, lifts frightened child

Owner arrives giving it loads, argument commences leading to handbags between dog owner and father.

This happened just front of me last night & I was with my young lad too so it could easily have been my kid.

I ended up splitting up the argument between the men, which upset everyones night.

But it raised the Q for me: who was formally wrong, gut feeling is the dog owner, ie dog not in control.

Thoughts?

Sunny Disposition

Duplicate post

RurtBeynolds

Was the dog attacking the child?

kippy

Dog owner 100 percent in the wrong initally. The dog should not have been off the lead.

The escalation of the situation would need more detailed information however I would be extremely angered should the same situation happen to me and if the dog owner showed no signs of remorse or concern for the health of my child after their uncontrolled dog caused them to come off their bike, I don't know how the situation would develop but it could easily have gone the same way.

The childs parent was justified in kicking the dog - would have done the same myself most likely to protect myself and my child.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994378#Comment_120994378

From the eye witness account it appears that the dog was attacking the child........

Rows Grower

What type of dog was it, a chihuahua, an American pit bull terrier?

Beefcake82

While i am not a parent, if i had a child and a dog knocked it off a bike/jumped on the child my instant gut reaction would be to boot the dog in the head to remove the dog from the situation. The reason for this is i do not know the temperament of the dog in question, if it is vicious, abused, has communicable diseases etc.

It does not matter breed or size of the dog, the parent did the right thing not knowing any of these factors to protect their child and fault lies with the dog owner for any consequence of what happened to the dog.

magicbastarder

AFAIK the law is not that the dog must be on a lead, but that it must be under the effective control of the owner. which does not appear to be the case here.

ratracer

The only thing the dog owner should have said here was “I’m very sorry about that, it was all my fault. Is your child ok?”

Anything else and he was a dick, and is completely in the wrong if he can’t control his dog.

Marlay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994485#Comment_120994485

Many parks have rules that require a dog to be on a lead at all times. Mostly ignored though. Some breeds are also required to be on a lead and muzzled in a public place, also mostly ignored. But clearly the dog wasn't under control in any case. I would say though how the 'boot' was delivered could be a factor. Kicking the dog hard is likely to upset any owner rightly or wrongly whatever the circumstances. You also don't know how the dog would react to something like that. Most likely back away, but if it couldn't for some reason and was scared enough might resort to a bite.

Whatwicklow

Op here

I dont know the dog breed, it wasn't big or small, I'll say medium sized

Did the dog attack the child.. I'd say no, it was galloping twords the child

Did the dog knock the child off the bike, No, the child fell while trying to stop the bike to (likely) get the protection of the parent.

Buddy Bubs

I love dogs, have 2 of them, the owner of the dog was at fault here

Witcher

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994539#Comment_120994539

You said-

Dog jumps to the child

Whether this took place is the key piece of information really, otherwise all you have is a child falling off a bike because they were scared and the father booting a dog.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994470#Comment_120994470

It matters very much the size and breed of the dog, if you kick a small dog with force you could easily cause serious injury or death. Your own preference for a boot to the head is worrying. The dog didn't knock the child off the bike or attack the child, that's obvious from the OP.

Donald Trump

Section 9 of Control of Dogs Act is your friend. Was alluded to above

That would be the starting point. However, more information would be needed. The dog might not have been going near the child at all in reality and the parent just booted it

RurtBeynolds

If not an off lead area of/time for the park, then the dog owner is at fault for letting the dog loose.

But it sounds to me like the dog was not attacking or being aggressive. Perhaps being playful/excited which can of course be off putting or misleading to non dog people.

I think kicking the dog is a huge overreaction, dad is at fault for that.

Whatwicklow

Op here, the dog was definitely heading to the parent / child. Maybe 6meters away the kid fell off the bike, the dog kept momentum in the direction of the crying child, father stepped to lift the child meeting the dog with the size ten accross the dogs shoulder.

Would there have been an attack on the child.. Unknown, the father wasn't throwing that dice.

John_Rambo

So the dog didn't actually touch the kid? Just ran towards them, the kid happened to fall off the bike and the dad kicked the dog. Bit of an overreaction, but then again a lot of people can't read dogs.

I would have known if the dog was running over to attack or to play. I've had dogs run towards my kids on a few occasions, sometimes the kids get a fright. That's life. I don't go kicking the dog. .

Andrew93

Perfectly justified for the father to kick the dog if he felt he/his child was in danger from the onrushing dog in my opinion. I know I would have done the same.

Jazz Hands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995005#Comment_120995005

I bet would wouldn't know if a dog was running over to attack or not.

ratracer

There is no defending the dog owner…… as a dog owner ( and I let my dog off the leash, but he is well trained), when I’m walking the dog, I always presume that anyone in our vicinity is nervous/ afraid of dogs, and act accordingly, eg make the dog sit to the side until they pass, or hold him/ pop him back on the lead. I see it as a way to show them that dogs themselves are not dangerous, the irresponsible owner is.

Kicking the dog was the wrong option, though a parent will do whatever it takes to protect a child.

FWIW, without knowing the breed/ size of dog, it’s most likely that the dog was being friendly, when the child ran it thought it was playing and so tried to chase it, but anyone not familiar/ comfortable around dogs would easily see this as an act of aggression.

Again, it’s 100% the fault of the dog owner!!

event

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994410#Comment_120994410

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994470#Comment_120994470

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995049#Comment_120995049

So presumably if your child was running towards a dog in a threatening manner and the dog was afraid, you'd have no issues with the dog owner booting your child in the head.

Has happened to me a few times. My dog is always on a lead and has severe anxiety. We don't let strange kids near her as she gets very afraid with the noise. Unfortunately from time to time kids run towards the dog and want to pet it. Dog hides behind me and I end up having to lift her & walk away, as the parents just stand and watch saying "X only wants to say hello"

Good to know its socially acceptable to kick them in the head for the future

magicbastarder

Yes, that is exactly the sort of logical conclusion you would draw from those comments.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995081#Comment_120995081

Would wouldn't what? I presume you're betting that I wouldn't know if a dog was running over to attack or not?

You're wrong. I would.

Beefcake82

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995131#Comment_120995131

I've owned dogs, i know the responsibility that comes with owning a dog. And even tho i have owned dogs there are times i an unsure of a dogs intentions, temperament etc. The scenario given by the OP shows the parent made a split second decision to protect their child not knowing anything about the dog in question, that is an instinctual reaction.

Awareness or not of how dogs are when someone feels they or family are threatened, they will in most cases react in the best interests of those close to them. Would i be upset if someone kicked a dog i owned because i didnt control it? Sure, however the outcome would be my fault for not keeping the dog under control, its no different if a dog runs onto a road and causes a car crash, or bites the postman, end of the day the dog owner has a responsibility to control the dog.

event

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995875#Comment_120995875

There are also times I am unsure of a childs temperament. Maybe they are going to kick my dog in the face. Maybe the child is a little pr1ck who has been raised wrongly and with no respect (lets be honest, there are loads of them).

And yeah in the OPs example, its instinct. But the 3 posts I quoted, they are not on instinct. They are people saying they would do the same. At the end of the people are talking about using violence against an animal that may not know any better (just like a child) and justifying it.

My nephew came home from creche last week with a bite mark on him, that drew blood. The next time the child who did it approaches him, would the parents be justified in round-housing him in the face?

NUTLEY BOY

The child's reaction - falling off - was a perfectly and reasonably foreseeable consequence of the anticipated encounter with the dog. Stop blaming the child for reacting normally to a situation that was inflicted upon them by the dog owner.

The proximate cause of the entire encounter was the failure of the dog owner to comply with their requirements, inter alia, to keep the dog under effective control. I would suggest on the facts supplied that there was also classical negligence on the part of the dog owner.

The child's father has a right to self defence. He also has the same right to defend his child. If the amount of force used to repel the dog was reasonable and proportionate to the threat presented there is no problem. It could happen that in the heat of the event that a more than necessary level of force was exerted but I do not think that would be a problem either unless the father did something ridiculous liking fending off the attack and then kicking the dog to oblivion.

Sunny Disposition

Both are wrong to an extent, but the father is far, far less wrong than the dog owner.

Sure, he wants to protect his child, but that doesn't mean kicking the dog, it means getting between the dog and the child, then if the dog is going to attack (and its pretty unlikely) violence might be justified. The dog owner is totally, indefensibly wrong, the dog can't just be let off with no lead. That's inexcusable.

I own a dog myself, but so many other people with dogs have a blind spot and don't realise that they can't be just let off the lead in public areas. Just because dogs don't unnerve you when they run up to you means nothing, you don't have the right to allow your animal invade other people's personal space. It genuinely amazes me that so many people don't understand this.

NUTLEY BOY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120996249#Comment_120996249

In what way is the father, to an extant, in the wrong ?

Pablo Escobar

I was cycling last night and was chased by a dog. It has never happened before. I tried to outpace it first but didn’t work so just figured that I’d face it and that would have meant booting it as a last resort. I don’t really know what other reaction people expect!? Luckily the dog lost interest when I stopped.

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120996334#Comment_120996334

He kicked the dog.