Breaking Up With An Old Favourite!

BeerNut

The style of beer that was most common here.

We don't have enough evidence of what pre-19th century Irish breweries made to say what sort of beer was common and what wasn't. See Kelly here, and his conclusion that "we can safely say that the very modern version of Irish Red Ale has no identifiable linear connection with brewing in the distant past"

Because Ireland's climate is marginal for hops, roasted barley was used and they often had no hops.

This makes no sense from a brewing point of view or a historical point of view. Roasted barley couldn't have even existed before Daniel Wheeler invented the roasting machine in 1817, and even then it couldn't have been used to make roasted barley for brewing, as the use of all unmalted grains was banned by the Duty on Malt (Ireland) Act, 1813. It first became legal to use roasted barley via the Inland Revenue Act of 1880, commonly known as the Free Mash Tun Act. So there's no great history of using roasted barley. I know of no evidence that brewers in Ireland and Scotland used less hops in their beer than English ones. Hops were packed up and exported; they're not a product which requires a ready local supply. And anyone who has ever put together a beer recipe will tell you that substituting roasted barley for hops is not a thing: they perform completely different tasks in the beer.

There are records of the style dating to the 14th century in Kilkenny

Kelly goes through this in detail in the link above. In short it's a big leap to draw a line from the phrase "Derg-Laith" in a medieval poem to "red ale" as we understand it today. For one thing, a poem is not a "record" in the brewing history sense.

Smitwicks setup in the early 18th century

Smithwicks was set up in 1827 or 1828, not the 18th century. Kelly again.

English Bitter's would traditionally have used caramel malts and hops so have a very different taste profile.

Not sure when you're referring to as "traditionally", but by way of illustration, Pattinson does a comparison of Irish and English ale brewing in 1838 here. You can pick through the numbers if you're into that, but he says "The Irish 40/- bears an uncanny resemblance to the London 40/-. In terms of both gravity and hopping." That doesn't sound like it would have a very different taste profile. If you have an alternative comparison I'd love to see it.

Irish stouts are a variation on London porters and arrived here only in the late 18th.

I don't think we have any conclusive facts on the beginning of Irish porter brewing but I think it may be a wee bit earlier: I've seen references to the Fumbally brewery making porter in the 1740s.

The ubiquitousness of Stout as the "Irish" beer only came about as the multitude of local breweries closed all over the country around the end of 19th and early 20th century.

Hey! I agree with this! Stout here basically means Guinness, which drove pretty much everyone else either out of business or into brewing the same sort of product as them.

Most of these would have had beer styles closer to the "Irish red" than the stouts.

If you mean that they made milds and bitters pretty much the same as the rest of the UK did, yup.

How we got from English-style pale ale to something badged as "Irish red" is set out by Kelly here, with some other historical context by Cornell here. I like Kelly's theory that it was the arrival of Watney's Red Barrel to Ireland in 1964 that caused Guinness to develop Smithwick's Draught and thereby create a style which was first called "Irish red ale" in 1998 in Jackson's Pocket Beer Book (Cornell again). We can see that today in that Smithwick's and keg Bass are seen as interchangeable, even though one is the quintessential Irish red and the other is a quintessential English bitter.

I'm happy to be called on any of this, but you'll need to cite some sources. Good ones.

Beanstalk

Good sources? Well, my barman says...

BeerNut

He must have been paying attention on that trade trip to the brewery visitors' centre.

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994161#Comment_120994161

Well I'm not claiming to be a tasting expert, but I haven't been getting much sour from them compared to a few years ago, but it could well be just me!

Hodors Appletart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994315#Comment_120994315

someone call the police, there's been a murder up in here

the beer revolu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994424#Comment_120994424

Sourness can be somewhat masked by sweetness but a beer isn't necessarily sweet or sour, it can be both.

I think the problem with a lot of contemporary sours is not that they aren't sour but that they are often far too sweet!

the beer revolu

😉!

Ronan|Raven

The porterhouse and their rebrands..... and what they did to the wrasslers label and also lack of it a lot of the rare times I am in town in their pubs since Bray died...

Also... where TSB AT?!

limnam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995530#Comment_120995530

Does Conor McGregor not run them now?

BeerNut

No. He bought the brewery, not the pubs and not the brand.

Ronan|Raven

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995688#Comment_120995688

They ruined the brand long before mcgregor came along.

Hodors Appletart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995688#Comment_120995688

weird, is the brewery he owns going to continue to produce the ph brand? will the pubs be selling any beer produced under the mcgregor brand?

it's way too tied up together for me anyway, I've made a decision not to buy the beer (ph OR mcgregor brand) or to go into the pubs pushing the brand made in the brewery he owns

irish_goat

Purely guessing but I can see the other pubs slowly moving away from the PH brand in the way Tapped has.

BeerNut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120999058#Comment_120999058

Yes, very weird. Essentially, Porterhouse beers are brewed under licence by McGregor's company. The Porterhouse generally does sell beers from associated brands (it has brewed for West Kerry and Brennan's, and sold their beer directly when it did) so it may well sell his, though it's under no obligation to do so. They may be discouraged from it by the way draught Forged stout is apparently just Porterhouse Plain. I'm told the cans of Forged come from Dundalk Bay so presumably they're a rebadge of the Brewmaster stout.

irish_goat

There was a clip of McGregor posted online the other day. He was swaggering into some event and mentioned the "Forged Army" a few times. If he's able to achieve the same sort of success he did with Proper Twelve I can't see how there will be room for Porterhouse beers at the brewery. Just looking at the Porterhouse socials and they haven't had anything posted since St.Patrick's Day either. I'd imagine the brand is gonna be wound up.

irish_goat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120999810#Comment_120999810

Confirmed on Twitter, nitro cans coming from the PH brewery. (Is it still called that?)

https://twitter.com/dougleddin/status/1702981451677892890

the beer revolu

Mikkeller passion pool.

When I first came across this a few years ago it seemed like the perfect expression of a passionfruit sour beer. I really loved it.

Now it's thin and has a bitter finish. It's not the same beer, at all. Hate when breweries do this.