How to approach this Roundabout

Qwerty27

Hey Folks, looking to settle an arguement on how to approach this roundabout!

Its Junction 6 off the M50 at Blanchardstown south bound. There's 2 lanes approaching the roundabout and for years I have always stayed in the left lane in order to proceeed around the roundabout to the 2nd junction. However, in the last few weeks, the road marking have been repainted and now show left lane is for the first exit only heading towards the Navan Road.

At the weekend, i approached as before but the car in the right lane then cut across me to get in the outer lane or "my" lane going around the roundabout. I had to stop on the rondabout to let him into the lane. He was following the road markings even if it didnt make sense to me to cut across on the roundabout while i think I was ok to be in the left lane for taking the second exit as I have always done and as cars in attached street view are doing.

If there had been a coming together, who would be at fault? Im more curious as I think the road marking are confusing!

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3829621,-6.3616545,3a,67.2y,192.32h,66.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTTw1h74GX0OdTYbcxtH8RQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058308596/how-to-approach-this-roundabout

I would imagine that he cannot change lane, regardless of any markings, if there is already traffic in that lane!

That said, we're crap in this country at designing roundabouts, crap at educating people about roundabouts and crap at using them!

Arnout

The design of the roundabout in itself is clear enough to me. The big problem in this country is the perpetual steel shortage to also put signs next to the road, advising which lanes to use or for example a merger of lanes. As half the time you can barely see the road markings due to traffic in front of you.

Having said that: according to Streetview the left lane already had a left-turn only arrow + the text 'CITY' on it in 2019, so it seems like you've been doing it wrong for quite some time. In all those years, did you always have too much traffic in front of you to see those markings?

ohnonotgmail

The road markings look pretty clear

Get Real

If there were no road markings then I'd agree with your approach, the left hand lane for the first and second and exits.

But imo the road markings trump the rules of the roundabout. For example the left arrow clearly means "this lane for left turn only" and occurs before the roundabout is entered into.

In theory, cars only turning left should be in this lane. So the car to your right, intending to use their lane to exit the second exit has the full presumption that

1)you're going to use the lane marked left turn only to turn left and take the first exit and

2) they, having used the correct lane to enter the roundabout, are free to proceed into the lane used in order to exit at the second exit.

Of course, they have a duty of care to ensure the lane is clear before they enter it, but also, you entered the roundabout from a lane marked left turn only. So it's 50/50 really imo. Ignoring the lane instruction by you and a lack of care upon entering the lane by them.

Also, you being in the lane continuing on when you should have turned left means they have to slow down to let you pass/before they can enter. Which has a knock on effect on the cars behind them also looking to use the 2nd or 3rd or 4th exit.

This causes traffic and encourages more people to do what you did and say "feck this, I'll use the left lane, the queue in the right is huge". Therefore negating the whole point of the "left turn only" lane and making it useless.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956291#Comment_120956291

If you ignore the fact there are lane markings, the 2nd exit is at 3 o'clock means you shouldn't be in the left lane and expecting to take it. Lane's entering a roundabout are based on how far around the clock your exit is not how many exits it takes you to get there.

Between OP ignoring lane markings, and ignoring the correct way to use a roundabout I think they're in a very sus position.

10-10-20

I had a ding-dong with another motorist on a similar roundabout and I ended up calling out the Gardai as he brake-checked me and then was aggressive.

Basically the Garda agreed that I was correctly using the left lane for the first or second exists (as I had remonstrated with the other driver about), except where there are road-markings or other signage to the contrary.

(Edited due to correction)

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956385#Comment_120956385

This always happens on roundabout threads, the RSA rules of the road say left lane up to 12 o'clock and right lane after 12 o'clock unless otherwise signed by road markings or signage. I'm not sure it's a good situation that garda are going against the road safety authority.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956317#Comment_120956317

For some reason my street view is not working properly so I can't verify, but I recently got caught at this junction.

I think the overhead "get in lane" signs guide you into that lane, going in the direction the op was going.

I remember as I wanted to go to blanch shopping centre so I wanted to remain as far left as I could and the signs were indicating that I could stay in the inner lane. Remember this is a junction not a roundabout and the two lanes feed into four lanes plus it's traffic light controlled so traffic from right is removed from equation while you are feeding into the four lanes. (Could even be 5 lanes) .

Anyway it was only when I got to the top of the slip road the markings changed and I had to move into the left lane (sorry edit: the right lane) It was a quiet Saturday morning so grand.

The car that was behind me stayed in the lane I was in (left lane) and also went to blanch 😂

It makes no sense to have one lane purely for left turns and one lane feeding into 4 lanes especially coming off the M50 at peak time the right lane would cause massive tailbacks.

Arnout

In my earlier comment I hadn't even realised that there's no "12 o'clock" exit on that roundabout and that the second exit is at "3 o'clock". Then, if you want to excuse my directness, WTF are you doing in the left lane? (unless there was a clear indication, which there isn't)

Even looking at 2018 SV. It gives two straight arrows, which I agree is ambiguous, but also text to indicate the left lane is for 'R147 CITY' and the right lane for 'N3 Cavan'.

Duine_Eigin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058308596/how-to-approach-this-roundabout

You are in the incorrect lane approaching this roundabout. If you are in a lane with a left turn only arrow, I'm not sure how you think it is OK to proceed straight ahead. The rules of the road state that if you a turning right at the roundabout or taking any exit after the 12 o'clock position, you should be in the right lane. Have a look at the video below that explains this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rsdaSTOkWk

In order to approach this roundabout correctly, you should enter the roundabout in the right lane and continue onto the middle lane below. When on the roundabout, you can follow this middle lane the whole way around to exit towards Blanch (in the right lane). Or you can change to the left lane while on the roundabout (if it safe to do so) and exit towards Blanch in the left lane.

I regularly take that same exit and I constantly see people using the wrong lane. My assumption is they introduced the road markings to free up the left lane and clear the slipway more efficiently. There is frequently a tailback on the N3 towards Blanchardstown and this tailback extends back towards the roundabout and M50 slipway. If people use the correct lanes for entering the roundabout, the left lane will remain clear for people to exit towards Castleknock. Anyone in the left lane who is turning right at the roundabout will be blocking traffic and preventing everyone in the left lane from exiting the roundabout towards Castleknock. Hope this clears things up for you.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956415#Comment_120956415

I stand corrected. I re-read the RSA rules and you're right. But the comment about the "except where there are road-markings or other signage to the contrary" remains correct.

P135:

https://www.rsa.ie/docs/default-source/road-safety/r1---rules-of-the-road/ruleoftheroad_book-for-web.pdf?sfvrsn=b5d57830_7

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956559#Comment_120956559

It's frustrating, there must of been a point in time when we switched from the number of exits to clock face system. This leads to awkward situations where two drivers have conflicting ideas of how to approach the roundabout. I find the most important thing in driving is predictability, it doesn't really matter what we do so long as we are all doing it the same way.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956424#Comment_120956424

I think that's down to how the junction is "designed" as a whole. The expectation would be that only people going to Blanchardstown Village are heading up to the roundabout. Anybody heading to the centre or Snugborough Road would be expected to use the freeflow from the M50 to N3.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956424#Comment_120956424

if as you say at the top of slip (which only has 2 lanes) you pull into left lane but you ignored the fact this was a left turn only lane and continued straight to go straight to go around the roundabout and head for Blanch, but yet you seem to slag the driver behind you for obeying the lane markings 🤪

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956621#Comment_120956621

Eh read my post again. (I acknowledge in my original post I did say I moved from the left hand turn only lane into the left lane....it's only a two lane system so obviously I meant I moved into the right hand lane)

I followed the overhead signage.

I got to top realised the lane I was in was left hand turn only.

I moved to the next lane (it was quiet so very easy to do)

The car coming behind me in the left hand lane remained there. i.e the left hand turn only lane

We both went to blanch .

I obeyed the road markings,they did not.

Now if it was a busy day with traffic in both lanes it's a bit late to be finding out you're in the wrong lane especially when all the overhead signage is guiding you to that lane.

Directional arrows on roads work well when there's little traffic , but in heavy traffic with another car sitting on top of them how is it supposed to work?

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956829#Comment_120956829

eh thats not what you said which is what was confusing

anyway, i see you read your original post and have edited it now to clarify

magicbastarder

worth mentioning that this roundabout was originally built with four exits and now has three. from the 6 o'clock position the OP was entering it, s/he would have had an option of a 9 o'clock, 12 o'clock, or 3 o'clock exit. now the 12 o'clock exit is no more - i wonder if it's possible to find how much the road markings have changed since.

bazz26

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAgX6qlJEMc

🤣 🤣

Arnout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956914#Comment_120956914

SV goes back to 2009. Temporary situation because of roadworks, but with three lanes.

Seve OB

OP is correct, big changes to road markings in the last 6 weeks or so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956914#Comment_120956914

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956933#Comment_120956933

the OSI imagery is very blurry but i think suggests two lanes between 12 o'clock and 2 o'clock (in this image) and three lanes clockwise from 3 o'clock?

in the old image, the traffic travelling between 12 o'clock and 2 o'clock would generally have been heading for the city, or southbound on the M50. now the vast majority on that stretch would just be city bound.

Qwerty27

Intersting comments, especially from people who use the junction frequently. Not sure why anyone needs to go left at all here as there is a seperate slip road well before this for Castleknock & Navan Road. There are new markings the whole way up to the junction now and it implies that a small number of vehicles that are going left now have a lane to themselves. Meanwhile, majority of traffic should stay right in one lane before joining three lanes on the "roundabout".

Anyway, looks like I was in the wrong and should follow the road markings here in future!

hoodie6029

Is this a roundabout though? Has it got roundabout signage on the approach?

Once the grade separated junctions were added a good few years ago this went from a traffic light controlled roundabout to a road junction. It just happened to be on the remains of a roundabout.

magicbastarder

Not sure why anyone needs to go left at all here as there is a seperate slip road well before this for Castleknock & Navan Road.

if you keep left as you exit the M50 here (is this the separate slip road you are referring to?), you're directed westbound onto the N3 - blanchardstown centre/navan etc.; you *could* take this option if you wanted to go almost into blanch village first but swing around the bell and back into castleknock over the humpback bridge.

if you want to go to castleknock (e.g. up auburn avenue), you have to use the roundabout.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956974#Comment_120956974

yes was going to add same comment

pat_sconce

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956973#Comment_120956973

I'd agree. It's a circulatory junction. But most will still call it a roundabout. Signage on approach has a gap between "3pm & 5pm".

The signage also shows a direct left carriage way @ 9pm and a direct right carriage way @ 3pm. Left says "Dublin, Castleknock", right says "Cavan, Blanchardstown".

So the approach signage suggests the right lane for Cavan & Blanch. The road markings suggest this too and clearly state Dublin + R147 (lane off the approach to the N3 Dublin bound) on the left lane and clearly state N3 Cavan for the right lane. The N3 Cavan itself is from the exit of the circulatory junction, so you are on the N3 before you get to the left turn junction for Blanchardstown - hence you must follow the signs for the N3 Cavan as it is the road you are travelling to albeit for a short distance of about 400m.

Duine_Eigin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956967#Comment_120956967

OP, are you're going to Blanch village after exiting the roundabout or have you been using the roundabout unnecessarily all these years...? As magicbastarder pointed out, that slip you mentioned is for the N3 towards Blanch/Navan. It loops under the slipway towards the roundabout.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956973#Comment_120956973

Definitely a roundabout with roundabout signage on approach.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956945#Comment_120956945

Big changes to the markings nearly the full length of the slip, yes. However, the left turn only marking at the entrance to the roundabout has been there for over four years. Yet still people use the left lane to go straight!

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956973#Comment_120956973

Well...

It does have the roundabout signs , but the layout isn't a traditional roundabout.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956974#Comment_120956974

Correct.

There is no need to be up on the "roundabout" at all. If you're taking the second exit, that's the one that leads up towards Blanch shopping centre, yes? You just keep all the way left when exiting the M50 an you end up on that N3 heading northwest anyway, no? Why are you ending up on the so called roundabout?

See here.

These are the lanes you're talking about as they leave the M50. Middle and Right hand lanes lead up to the round about. Left lane leads directly to N3 without having to interact with anyone going any other direction.

magicbastarder

There is no need to be up on the "roundabout" at all.

if you're heading into blanchardstown village, the roundabout is the only (sensible) option open to you.

pat_sconce

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120957209#Comment_120957209

I think you have the opposite exit. Click on the Google maps in the op and it links to the location

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120957582#Comment_120957582

Dont think so. If you click on OPs link and go back about 50 yds, you end up at my link.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120957271#Comment_120957271

OP wasn't going to the village, he's heading out the N3. He has no need to be anywhere near roundabout, does he?

Qwerty27

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120957668#Comment_120957668

I turn in left towards the Bell pub as heading to Laurel Lodge so this is the only option. I think you have to use the "roundabout" too for access to the hospital.

Reason I approached in the left lane is that after the "roundabout" I'm taking a left less than 400 meters after exiting the roundabout/junction.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058308596/how-to-approach-this-roundabout

"the road marking have been repainted and now show left lane is for the first exit only heading towards the Navan Road"

I'm not sure why there is any discussion past this. He was going to his lane, not yours. If you continued around the N3 exit and had a bang, you'd be fault.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956317#Comment_120956317

The left lane / right lane rules only really apply for two lane roundabouts. when you deal with 3+ land roundabouts the left lane should not assume it can keep going. It would be able where road hierarchy made sense for it to be designed that way.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956945#Comment_120956945

Streetview should that the left lane and been left turn only for years. Possibly since it was complete.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956447#Comment_120956447

No quite. The "middle lane" you've highlighted is actually the inner lane at the point of the slip road junction. Doing that makes the driver cross extra lanes unnecessarily. Two lanes entering should usually be entering into the two outer lanes minimising the lanes being crossed.

Obviously the road markings show you exactly what you have to do, so OP hasn't a leg to stand one. But even without markings. It's pretty clear where the cars should be going based on the layout of the lanes. Although the markings could be better. But still, worrying the amount of people driving for years and still unsure what to do at roundabouts.

https://i.imgur.com/0uQFM8C.png

Duine_Eigin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120960084#Comment_120960084

Entering either lane on the roundabout would be acceptable in my view. The middle lane is actually the safer option taking into account how many people refuse to obey the left turn only road markings entering the roundabout. By taking up the leftmost lane on the roundabout, you run the risk of colliding with anyone who has refused to obey the road markings entering the roundabout. The exact situation the OP found himself in and what started this discussion.

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120960415#Comment_120960415

The issue is more there's no signage (or there wasn't) to say left lane is left turning only until you reach the top of the slip.

Even then it's only painted on the road so in heavy traffic you're not going to notice it as the car in front of you will cover it.

If there was a left turn arrow painted where the straight ahead arrow is painted on the left lane or at the entrance of the slip road it would allow people to get into the correct lane early.

As a generalisation I don't think the majority of people wilfully ignore road markings/signage. Yes there are cheeky pups that use the wrong lane if it's faster flowing then try to muscle in and merge at the top, I like to believe these are minority ar$eholes.

I think generally though,the average person just wants to get from a to b safely without the headache of hitting another car or bring hit, so will follow markings once the markings are clearly displayed.

But yeah I agree with you, I don't see why the left lane can't be both left turn and straight ahead.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120960415#Comment_120960415

There is no middle lane

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120960885#Comment_120960885

It's bad practice to be getting drivers used to making 3 o'clock exits from roundabouts by entering them in the left lane going 270 degrees around them.

I totally agree with you on the signage issues, we seem to have an endemic of sticking signs on poles in urban areas but won't go to the trouble of properly signing junctions and higher speed roads. The reliance of paint on the carriageway is grand in the dead of night but useless when there is any kind of traffic.

Spook_ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956967#Comment_120956967

I don't think there is a route to Castlenock without taking the RaB, the earlier slip road takes you towards the shopping centre, Snugborough intergchange and N3, the left at the RaB entails turning left and then entering the road on the left to join the Dunsink lane and then to traverse the N3/Navan Road because there is no right turn at the lights for Auburn Ave from the N3/Navan Rd.

Sleeper12

I had to double check the date on the opening post.

The left lane has been left only for a lot longer than OP thinks. It's a lot more than "the last few weeks".

harmless

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120962087#Comment_120962087

Google maps show it changed sometime between summer 2018 and summer 2019 and has stayed that way since.

Seve OB

RaB. 🤯 I swear the English language has gone to pot.

anyway, depends on where in the knock you are going, you can take slip and go round by the bell pub.

and again, major changes to the top of the slip there a few weeks ago. I only went up it once since and can’t remember exactly, but it was quite dramatic change

Flinty997

I used that lane a fair bit. When it's busy the lane is usually backed up. Easy not to see the markings on the road.

Since day one I've thought that roundabout was poorly designed. Not very intuitive. But after a while you get used it. Tbh it's very common in the UK for junctions like this to become complex over time. That's what happened to this one. Google maps is very useful for showing the correct lanes

I've ever liked the clock system on roundabouts. Also think we make multi lane roundabouts too small.

At the end of the day the op was wrong. Most important thing is not to hit anything and learn from it.

Flinty997

From a practical point of view that left lane moves off slower, I would always use the right lane going for the blanch exit.

It's a nightmare at peak though. A real bottleneck.

Duine_Eigin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120961080#Comment_120961080

We are talking about which lane to take when you get on the roundabout and are going towards Blanch. The roundabout opens up into three lanes after the exit for Castleknock. See post 37.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120960885#Comment_120960885

There is new signage in place now showing the left lane is left turn only. Looks like it went in with the additional left turn only lane markings the whole way up the slip. No excuse now for people being in the wrong lane, even in heavy traffic.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120960415#Comment_120960415

The lane you proposed is the inner lane not the middle lane. If lights stop the flow on the round about then the it's probably irrelevant. But if the lines were marked better it could actually word as a free flowing junction.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120962705#Comment_120962705

That (The Bell) would be going west from this roundabout, and in that case the previous slip is skips the roundabout. But the navan road exit OP sohuld have taken is going east and the slip road left turn/lane is the only way to go that way AFAIK.

Flinty997

You can't get to the bell on the slip that skips the roundabout.

Navan road exit takes forever, due to how awkward it is at the travel lodge. Slow light also. Which is why people go via the bell.

If it's at peak all these roads are jammed. None are freeflowing and all are queued back.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120964437#Comment_120964437

yep, as of april 2023 that sign did not exist. and as Flinty997 mentioned, in rush hour you had not a hope of seeing road markings till you were on top of them.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3842829,-6.36026,3a,75y,191.43h,82.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEL0AbpFtHlQg2TG_hkKTPg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu