National Genotyping Programme - ICBF

patsy_mccabe

Has anyone signed up for The National Genotyping Programme with ICBF?

I'm in the SCEP scheme and I will be genotyping anyway under that. I see there is a FAQ document on ICBF.

ICBF Web Application

Dozer1

Yup same as yourself in SCEP so might aswell

tanko

Will signing up for this save money on genotyping for the SCEP scheme?

ABitofsense

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949867#Comment_120949867

No you pay for your SCEP requirement. Then all others are 6 euro I think. The only reason I'm joining is all can be done at birth so saves the hassle of wrestling big calves. Tag & send samples away immediately way easier

ABitofsense

Any gaps in your breeding herd are free this year too I believe.

patsy_mccabe

I signed up there today. 10 different screens to go through.

anthony500_1

What's the story with tags unused from this year, I've 10 sets of tags left over this year that will go unused, can I get the "buttons" to match these "old" tags or is it a case of dump the unused ones I already have and order new sets for next year going forward??? I've not signed up yet, but thinking it would be a lots easier on man and beast to do them at birth

patsy_mccabe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120973314#Comment_120973314

From FAQ

9) I already bought my tags for 2024, what can I do now?

a) If you have single tissue national tags bought or left over from calving 2023, you will need to order corresponding button tags to genotype these calves at birth. 

Lime Tree Farm

Did any suckler beef farmers receive their NGP tags for 2023 ? I thought we would have received them by now.

anthony500_1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120973740#Comment_120973740

Good man patsy, that's not so bad. At least the ones I have won't go to waste. I'm sure mullinahone will be only to happy to organise the buttons 🤣🤣🤣

Sami23

Got a letter from ICBF this week advising me to join - are many on here joining ?

Don't see much in it for us bar what people are saying about getting it out of the way at birth.

I usually apply the SCEP/BDGP tags to yearlings before they go out for their second summer so think I'll be giving this a miss.

Jb1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993722#Comment_120993722

Did you go for it yourself? Have to order tags for calves and dunno whether to go for it.

On a side note, does any suckler man that buys an untagged calf to stick on a dead calves cow, and register it as hers, worry about the paper trail showing different bull and different dam because of the genetics showing up

Thekeencyclist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949816#Comment_120949816

I joined SCEP this year, wasnt in the old BDGP scheme, so i'm waiting to get the results of the genotyping I done back about 6 weeks ago before I sign up.

Effectively if I dont have enough 4 or 5 stars in the herd when I get the results, i'll be pulling out of the SCEP scheme so hence no need to join the NGP.

If I do have enough 4 or 5 stars, then yes I will also sign up for the NGP cos as mentioned by another poster, it will be far handier genotyping the calf after its born rather than trying to round them up etc at a later stage for every year of the scheme, its just another job in my eyes that can be avoided by signing up.

PoorFarmer

I signed up too. The only reason like everybody else is saying is to have the sample tags at birth when it is easy enough to tag calves. My place is fairly scattered and it usually ends up that I have to pen a few groups to get the genotyping done.

Sami23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051893#Comment_121051893

No not going to bother with this scheme - I'll just carry on doing as I was up to now

Seanhorse91

I signed up for the pilot genotyping scheme this year. There’s not much extra work in it. You’re tagging the calf for the BVD anyways, the 2nd tag is now for the genomics. Send them off to their respective labs, and 1 week or so later, you’ll be notified that you can register your calf Birth.

Log in, you’ll see the parentage details, if you’re happy, click save and register and that’s it. Handy for lads that might be Aiing and running a bull. I did have a heifer that came back on the genomics as being a bull, but I was able to override this. Most of the time it’s 100%

Dozer1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058308387/national-genotyping-programme-icbf

Tags arrived for the scheme today from Cormac tags

ABitofsense

Same here. The service from Cormac is top class never a delay from them

Katie 2018

Just got word of my tags have been dispatched today to tag remaining weanling heifers. Problem is I've them sold they been collected tomorrow. Waiting long time for tags to arrive. Mullinahone coop!

Sugarbowl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121140361#Comment_121140361

It says on the letter that came with them that if you have the cattle sold for the corresponding tags they can be discarded so you should be fine

Sami23

Did many people sign up for this in the end ?

tanko

It has been extended until the end of October.

ABitofsense

I tagged the few requested at the weekend. Honestly next year tagging for genotype at calving is the best idea in awhile. Trying to wrestle with a 850kg cow who never puts here head in the head gate or a 300kg calf to get a small tag in. Pure torture!! Anyway thats all females on the farm done for this scheme! Hopefully they're quicker with the genotyping than they are with the SCEP samples as I still have 2 left as "sent to lab" which they received first week of July

Sami23

So I'm actually still weighing up whether to join or not and can't fully get my head around what it will cost me.

Lets say I have 20 Cows for arguments sake and 10 is my reference for SCEP each year and that 10 must be genotyped each year for that.

The price to genotype in SCEP is €18 per animal so this year is costing me €180.

Next year SCEP genotyping will again cost me €180 for the reference number of 10 but if I join the NGP will I also have to pay another €180 to genotype the other 10 calves next year or will it cost me the €6 each they mention next year so €60 in total for the other 10 ?

Bullocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121144089#Comment_121144089

I had one heifer sold without knowing she was picked for tagging. They told me to discard her tag and they sent out a hair sample kit. You have to get 20 or 30 hair follicles in it off another female and sent that for testing instead

Bullocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121187721#Comment_121187721

I'm still in it after thinking I would pull out. I have the bord bia inspection tomorrow so we will see how that goes.

If that doesn't go well or any of the ICBF tags come back as empty and need to be redone I'll be out of it again.

endainoz

Think it's a no brainer to join it really, especially for lads in scep. Animals will need to be genotyped anyway so it will be much easier to tag a new born calf than having to gather up all stock at some point in the summer. The problems of low reliability from icbf star ratings will be eliminated aswell. Everyone in scep should definitely be in it.

Sami23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121193659#Comment_121193659

The only thing is people in SCEP don't need to genotype all their calves each year - only 70% of their reference number.

So this scheme will now force us to genotype all of them and pay for it also if I'm correct.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192991#Comment_121192991

You won’t be regenotyping the cows every year. Just new born calves

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192991#Comment_121192991

It’s €6 each for the ones not needed to be done for the SCEP i think.

Sami23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194029#Comment_121194029

Yes but I'd only be required to genotype 10 calves for SCEP next year but will have to genotype all 20 for NGP if I go into it

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194105#Comment_121194105

How does that work out as 70%? If your concern is paying for a few calves each year you must be really clutching the pennies! 😂. I can understand it for massive numbers maybe but not for less than 20 calves. Also the convenience of tagging and genotyping at birth is an obvious plus for it I think.

Sami23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194302#Comment_121194302

🤣 I agree they aren't my numbers I was just trying to explain it.

As the cost of SCEP genotyping is 18euro - for the extra calves that have to be done next year on top of the SCEP requirement will they cost the 18euro or the 6euro mentioned ?

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121193659#Comment_121193659

I’m in SCEP and not going to join it. Cows and calves are in and out for Ai and dehorning so it’s no big deal to tag them. As for the star ratings, genotyping makes SFA difference. Overall the Eurostars are a pile of crap anyway.

ABitofsense

18e for SCEP genotyping & 6e for any additional calves under NGP scheme from my understanding of the scheme.

Difference also is tags available at calving Vs middle of the summer.

Time and hassle saved tagging at birth is worth that 6e extra to me anyway

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194464#Comment_121194464

Genotyping makes a massive difference in terms of reliability, and evaluations will come far sooner now. As for the Eurostars being a pile of crap, it's irrelevant really as they're going no where.

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194499#Comment_121194499

I know they’re not going anywhere. To say it’s irrelevant whether the Eurostars are fit for purpose or not is laughable. There needs to be an independent investigation into what ICBF get up to.

patsy_mccabe

Genotyping is very important for a few reasons. It verifies both the dam and sire, but it also establishes which genes get carried from the parents. With ICBF, the calves start off as an average of both parents then goes up and down from the genotype results. If you have a polled calf, it will also verify if it is homogeneous polled (full polled) or heterogenous polled (half polled). No other way to do this before you have calves on the ground.

You'd be crazy now to buy a bull that is not genotyped.

anthony500_1

They must be struggling to get numbers signed up with the extension of the closing date,and I'm now getting texts asking me to sign up, they must be under pressure for numbers to meet there requirements. I've still not signed up. I'm really on the fence on this one

endainoz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194547#Comment_121194547

Everyone knows it's to give ratings to dairy beef stock, there's no big mystery or conspiracy about it. I'd say you'll be waiting a long time for any investigation however.

Donald Trump

Applied for SCEP here. But I can't see the benefit of this. We have a few sucklers but you're talking only 10%.

My understanding is that we'd get all the cows genotyped now for free, but then have to pay 6 quid a head for all the dairy calves being done going forward. And the only "benefit" would be that we'd have the SCEP ones' tags at the start of the year?

Am I missing something? Because it doesn't seem that there is any real incentive to go to the bother

Diarmuid B

They’re tagged as calves so all parentage and genomics is done before they’re 30 days old. No more gathering up weanlings or yearlings and bringing them in to the pen to wrestle with them to get a tag in. Just makes life easier for everyone and all parentage issues/errors would be sorted at birth instead of months down the line when you may be tight for deadlines for schemes. That’s just my take on it anyways, €6 per animal to have it all sorted when they’re born is a no brainer really.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293234#Comment_121293234

But we'd be tagging say 8 dairy calves @ 6 Euro per head cost to save some potential inconvenience with one suckler calf. Unless there is some other actual benefit or requirement that I must be missing

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293258#Comment_121293258

The biggest benefit will be towards dairy beef breeding on both the cows side and also the bull. It will help to deal with some of the poor beef subindex breeding and also give confidence to what you are buying. As a calf rear, actually knowing what you are buying is half the battle.

In the next 3 years, I can guarantee that every calf in the country will be DNA sampled at birth to register it.

mossy_90

Well lads just have a quick question.

We usually run low in tags every and end up waiting for them and calf's waiting too...so I ordered a clatter of them for next year in advance before I heard about the ngp program .....I'm assuming I'd like at the loss of them if I join ngp program.?would I be rite in thinking that?

Also the main benefits I see is

Not rounding them up for tagging when older?

Besides that it is more money out of pocket if you go with NGP.?

Thanks in advance

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293362#Comment_121293362

Maybe so. But we tend to keep calf to beef (or near enough). The factories aren't paying extra for knowing the parentage and anyone buying to finish off the last couple of months is buying based on what they see rather than paper.

If there was no charge for it I think we'd do it to have all the cows done. Or even if going into it meant that the SCEP ones only cost 6 quid that might be something.

Of all the tasks with animals, tagging is one of the easiest. Once you can get them tight in the crush with their heads up you don't even need to try to restrain them. Just line it up and a quick pull on the tagger and it's done. They are going to be coming in for weighing anyway.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293012#Comment_121293012

Same as that. Given you have to weight them aswell that’s the same opportunity to have them in the crush and tag them so no extra handling.

The faffing around at the blue card stage waiting for sire confirmation would be a pain in the arse also.

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293446#Comment_121293446

If you want to use those tags you’ll have to order button tags with the same numbers to take the genomic sample.

As for farmers saying they won’t have to round them up for tagging when they’re older do farmers never have a sick animal or dose cattle or Ai cows or ever put their cattle into the yard during the summer? They’re must be lots of farmers who let their cattle out in the Spring and never have them in the yard til housing.

If you’re in the SCEP scheme joint the NGP will actually cost you more money afaik because you have to genotype every animal born on your farm.

mossy_90

Thanks for the reply Tanco

A rite I didn't know that you can get the buttons.im sure that cost also.

I fully agree with you.i dose calf's every six weeks through the summer and always problems along the way aswell. So plenty of opportunitys to tag. along with when they are weighed (although some years this is done in the field 🤣)

Cost you money is all I can see aswell

Think my tagging for scep is 400 already and they want to add another 150 or more to it. Why not do them all for 6 euro.

Thanks again I think I'll leave it to them👍

Alibaba

So I joined the National Genotyping Programme. Have a couple of young calves now and have some tags left over from earlier in the year.

Am I right in saying that I'll have to order the dna button tag now to sample these ?

Also is it Weatherbys I have to send the samples to be tested ?

I think The Department were saying they cover the cost of sampling you're remaining animals in 2023 ..

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121402708#Comment_121402708

You don’t have to order button tags for calves born this year but you will for any calf born next year if you want to use up those tags left over from earlier this year. Yeah the department will cover the cost of sampling any remaining female animals you have which aren’t genotyped, there is an option not to do this if you want. They will send genomic tags out to you for these animals.