Cycling Ireland membership is a complete rip off- Discuss

Daroxtar

So my thought on it are as per the thread title. I'm a leisure cyclist. I love going out on my club spins. I enjoy the odd sportive. The club gets absolutely nothing back as far as I can see in terms of support from CI. It's €50 for a leisure licence and €20 for the club membership. Why is it not the other way around? What exactly do CI do to deserve my €50?

Sportives are organised entirely by the clubs, the only input from CI is giving them an allocated date. Club spins are organised entirely by the clubs and there is absolutely no input from CI.

I have no problem supporting my club but I can not justify paying CI for doing absolutely nothing for me. Am I missing something, am I wrong?

Mehaffey1

The Cycling Ireland license used to give you a degree of Insurance, unsure if that still is the case?

Daroxtar

That's about €10. I had an accident a few years ago and the excess was more than the hospital bill.

beggars_bush

It's the same in all sports organisations. Clubs have to pay affiliation fees for members or teams to the parent sports body.

GAA, soccer, rugby, tennis, golf. Doesn't matter what sport.

monkeyslayer

Between that cost and the cost or lack of hotels etc I haven't been bothered to travel to any sportif this year. Just too expensive.

CramCycle

I say this everytime a post like this comes up, and it may sound dismissive but it is serious. Put a motion together to cap leisure fees for 5 years at 25. Put reasons together to explain at the AGM why you think 50 is to much, use other sports organisations as an example, canvas other clubs with large leisure members before hand and so on.

No point complaining if you can't show a reasonable alternative.

For me, I think covering of insurance and administration with a surcharge is reasonable. Administration maybe more than you'd think, there was a price for insurance up there, no idea if it is correct or not. I'd be surprised if, minus a surcharge, it was much less than 20 a head for each but you need to go in with hard numbers.

Personally I thought leisure membership was to cheap for years as it would barely cover admin or insurance but the jump was excessive.

SwissToni

Rubbish, your money is been well spent on consultants, working groups, insurance, solicitors, imagine they could be wasting it by sending irish cyclists to international events.

G1032

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058307148/cycling-ireland-membership-is-a-complete-rip-off-discuss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120603298#Comment_120603298

You're not the first to bring this up. You may or may not find an answer at the link above

Daroxtar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120917826#Comment_120917826

There's some relevant info there but for non racing members I stand by my assertion that it's a complete rip-off. The "admin" for leisure events is pretty much entirely done by the clubs and an hour on a Microsoft excel spreadsheet would sort out the schedule of events for the year.

In 2020 I paid for LC, there were no events for the whole year. My club refunded all membership fees and CI never gave as much a cent of a refund or reduction in the following years fees. I wrote an mail enquiring about it and didn't even get an automated response, much less an explanation of where the money was being used

dahat

Insurance is the only reason any leisure rider to join. No CI no club spin & until that cycle is broken you’ll pay have to pay €50, €60, €80 or whatever CI deem appropriate unfortunately.

kenmc

I reckon I get great value for my 50 quid tbh. I usually do 2 or 3 events a year which would be a tenner each extra for a one day licence. I also get 10 euro voucher , loyalty discount rate and free shipping even for very low purchase amounts from cycle superstore. Then there's the insurance which thankfully have never needed so can't comment on the value from that, but Im pretty sure I see my 50 quid back regardless.

nicksnikita

What’s actually insured under the CI membership?

Bike? Personal injuries? Or other?

Has anybody got any experience in claiming?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919056#Comment_120919056

No experience in claiming but the cover is as follows...

Personal Accident

*This cover applies to a member when they are training, **competing or officiating in activities of Cycling Ireland. This includes individual training/leisure cycles, group & club cycles. Medical expenses are covered to a maximum of €2,500 each claim which includes dental expenses up to €2,000. Excess of €250 applies to medical and dental claims. There is also an inner limit of €500 for physiotherapy expenses. Loss of earnings is covered for a maximum of €150 per week for a maximum of 13 weeks with the first week not being covered.

*Add-on of €10 / £9 for Leisure Membership

**Valid competitive membership required to take part in any competitive events

Public Liability (“Third Party”)

This covers a member for any third party liability or property damage for which they are held legally liable. (a third party is a person not accredited with membership of Cycling Ireland) when you are training, competing or officiating in an approved Cycling Ireland activity. (a €500 excess applies to each claim, to be paid by claimant). There is no cover in respect of any injury or damage suffered by one participant caused by another participant during training activities (please note members can still claim the personal accident cover above in this case).

There is an indemnity limit of €6.5 million per incident. An increased limit is available upon request.

Professional Indemnity

Indemnifies registered members (coaches, committee members) in respect of advice given for which they are negligent and leads to a financial loss. 

There is an indemnity limit of €6.5 million per incident

https://www.cyclingireland.ie/get-involved/membership/insurance/

Large bottle small glass

The insurance is designed so that most are unlikely to use it.

With a high excess and a low high end payment it's a very specific injury loss that is covered.

Combined with cycling, certainly club cycling, being heavily populated with members likely to have

*Their own health insurance

*Covered by employers with benefit schemes in event of injury

Most injured parties aren't going to bother claiming.

If you don't have the two things above, are self employed and have a physical job they you either pay for proper cover or don't get injured.

€150/week isn't going to cover it.

Expecting €50 a year to cover medical bills and loss of earnings isn't realistic.

Somewhere in the €1000-1500 would likely be more realistic depending on what you want from your insurance policy.

The CI policy is really just about covering a really really really unlikely calamity 3rd party claim with the injury cover for show.

The €20 one day licence is just acting the b0llix

Seth Brundle

Looking at the UK, British Cycling's insurance offering doesn't seem much better...

• <= £20m Third Party Liability cover
• Personal Accident cover (for Race Gold members only?) - cash payments if hospitalised overnight & lump sums if you die - no medical expenses.
• Other forms of insurance cover available to purchase

Membership prices vary but for the personal accident cover membership plan you're looking at £78

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/membership/benefits

There is also Cycling UK, a membership charity who have a similar offering...

https://www.cyclinguk.org/insurance

hesker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919091#Comment_120919091

So personal injury during leisure cycling is covered but third party is not?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919264#Comment_120919264

It's the other way around. Everyone gets Third Party whereas racers get personal injury and leisure need to pay another tenner for it.

The Ging and I

Leisure cycling fees are the cash cow for the racing fraternity.

They have absolutely no interest in any other aspect of cycling.

There should be another body independent of CI to cover leisure cycling.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919329#Comment_120919329

It's been said on here before that this is simply down to racers getting more representation because they are more likely to turn up to CI's AGM and vote on issues

CheGuedara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919329#Comment_120919329

100%.

Especially in Munster.

The sooner there's a breakaway for leisure to cater for the interests of noncompetition riders and invest in that aspect of the sport the better.

loyatemu

how many clubs don't do races? AFAIK, clubs have to affiliate to CI, so to join a club you also have to join CI. If there were a bunch of leisure only clubs they could breakaway and form their own organisation maybe, but I don't think there are.

The personal insurance is an extra €10 for leisure members, so presumably the other €50 is cover club affiliation and CI's own costs - what exactly does it cover for the clubs? 3rd party cover for racing and leisure spins, is that it?

I don't have much to compare it to (other than Golf Club fees which are on a different planet) but less than €100 a year all in seems cheap enough to join any sports club, but when the bulk of that is going to CI rather than the club it's probably fair to ask what it's for.

Daroxtar

That's my biggest issue. 2-3 spins a week with the club, all the social aspects of that and they get €20. CI do absolutely nothing for me but if I don't pay them their €50, I can't go on club spins. It's a scam.

iwillhtfu

My 2c would be the nonsense that one sport does no recognise the others licensing. I renew a TI membership every year but to race in any of the road series or even do a sportive I've to buy a ridiculously over priced ODL or join CI. The same with AI I believe. I understand the need but surely there could be some kind of joined up thinking between all of the organisations.

mamax

I'll race for a few more years and once I finish CI won't get another cent from me.

Clubs run and pay for races and sportives, CI contributes nothing. it's the clubs that should get the most of our "fees"

nicksnikita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919091#Comment_120919091

Thanks 👍️

Wishbone Ash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120920475#Comment_120920475

Forget about who gets what and think of it like this - you pay €70 annually to go on 2-3 club rides per week. That's pretty good value at an average of 50c per ride.

(BTW, your club membership fee is very low - lower than 'non-cycling' membership in most clubs).

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120922065#Comment_120922065

I pay GAA membership every year and for 2023 the costs for our club were as follows...

On top of that, there are various club fundraisers during the year with some priced at €100 per ticket. I also have to pay into games (on top of the absolute pain in the hole of having to drive to Kildare's training grounds @ Hawkfield)

magicbastarder

the (non-sports) club whose committee meeting i am heading to now, costs minimum €60 a year to join (€20 extra for smaller clubs) and typically €5 to €10 to attend any of the meetups; each chapter (of which there are three in dublin) typically puts on one meeting a month, with the larger chapter having two a month.

nationally, the organisation is a fraction of the size of CI, it must be pointed out.

beggars_bush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120922102#Comment_120922102

Gaa clubs in rural areas are usually much cheaper than that.

But getting back to the point, are the cycling Ireland fees prohibitive to those wanting to start doing o leisure events? Or to start with a club?

Seth Brundle

I get the value from my club (and so CI) membership so I'm happy to pay it. I'm still not convinced that CI do much for me as a member and this comes down to the multi-faceted forms one can be on a bike (commuter, leisure cyclist, racer, etc.).

Wishbone Ash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120922828#Comment_120922828

It's €50 for a CI leisure licence. If you also join a club it will be the CI €50 plus club membership fee.

Junior

I'd actually suggest the reverse is true, your €20 to your club isn't doing anything for you. By paying a fee into your club, you aren't getting a license, you aren't getting insurance, and your club spins are costing the club nothing. Your €20 is probably doing more to support the "leechy" racing cyclists in the club than anything at CI Level.

I'll add a couple of caveats here, I've been Club Chairman, I've done PRO, Race Director, Committee member etc. I have no ties to CI and no affiliation with them in anyway.

The Solution for both Club and CI is to roll the Leisure license and club membership into one. But that wouldn't suit either party as someone would need to be taking a hit. It would ensure everyone on a club spin had some level of cover, would allow leisure riders to events without getting rode for One Day licenses etc.

At a Board Level in CI because All revenue goes into the same pot, it feels like the Leisure cyclist is paying for Racing. And in no way shape or form is that true. As a club, if you want to put on a race, you find sponsors yourself, you find prize money, you find marshals, sh*t you don't even get finish line cameras from CI. You pay for the Comms, everything is an expense, you pay for Insurance, everything. So no Club is getting a hand out from CI to put on Races.

Most Leisure cyclists will offer up the opinion I get nothing for my €50. I'd kindly ask what do you want for your €50 ? And if you want something, you had better starting telling your leisure committee in your club to go represent you.

Ideally I think CI needs to re-mandate itself, and split into a couple of divisions, one related to sport, one related to leisure, and one related to advocacy for commuting, bike lanes, safety etc. And work accordingly. But that's just me.

Morris Garren

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926512#Comment_120926512

This is an excellent summary; excellent points that have been made many times, almost ad nauseum, typically responding to the regular leisure cyclist whinge about money. I think much of the frustration on the issue is misdirected towards the competitive aspects of cycling when in fact the issue is more of an administrative and management of funds question. Its the CI mindset and the ongoing support for these structures that keeps things the way they are.

I think there needs to be a critical mass of non-competitive cyclists who genuinely want change to advocate successfully for a quasi-independent cycling group who get more 'bang for their buck' - then we will really see where their 50 quid goes. Why doesn't this happen? My guess is that the vast majority of leisure cyclists are not actually animated or upset by 50 quid. Admittedly, 20 for ODL can seem steep but people are paying 700 quid to see Taylor Swift these days!

loyatemu

FWIW - from the 2022 annual report:

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926512#Comment_120926512

Excellent post.

Daroxtar

I never said anything in my original post giving out about the racing members. They pay double the leisure fee for their racing licences and they pay high enough entry fees for the races they take part in. My club has a very high ratio of racing:leisure cyclists. They're the lads I cycle with every week. My mates. Not leeches.

My issues relate to what my money is doing for me and the other leisure cyclists. Looking at the graphs and figures above, it's mostly paying for consultancy, admin, marketing and a handful of cyclists to train in the high performance program. What happened to the big An Post sportives, the Rebel tour, Yeats Tour, Sean Kelly? Why couldn't CI make sure these events continued? Insurance problems? Couldn't Marketing or admin help find some sponsorship? Stuff we're supposedly paying for?

Again going back, I'd have no issue paying substantially higher club membership. It is the club that organises our club spins, not CI, but if you don't pay CI you can't do a club spin. Their insurance is a box ticking exercise, nothing more. It is the club that put on family spins, the club members that organise our trips away. The club organises its anual sportive and its race. All the things that being part of a club entails, all entirely done by the club. What do CI do? Send out a couple of emails and leaflets around bike week and call it education?

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120929123#Comment_120929123

Does €706k not seem pretty expensive relative to the income amount? Maybe it's just me but I abhor consultancy fees and not based on the latest RTE affair. I've seen eye watering sums of money wasted on consultancy fees over the years.

Squidgy Black

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930184#Comment_120930184

I would imagine last year was much higher due to the whole audit thing and legal fees, they’d both KOSI and BDO in doing audits last year

siochain

Genuine question. Do I understand it correctly that some of the leisure license free goes to support the racing crew?

siochain

Aye I’m involved in a GAA club but we are comparing apples with oranges here. Some of the frees go to supporting ground upkeep, training equipment, etc.

Dr.Tom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926512#Comment_120926512

Great summary Derek.

Cycling Ireland seems to be turning into what Motorcycling Ireland became.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120933129#Comment_120933129

I was the one who introduced GAA membership fees to the discussion as it was an easy sports club membership comparison.

As Weepsie said, it is a bit of a cult alright.

I do also know when I was involved in managing an underage team some years back, I personally paid a number of the referees out of my own pocket (€20 a game) but this was only for a few games. Also, there were several players who were not members but the community spirit of the GAA meant that the club wasn't going to stop them playing. Some of these non-paid-up-member players were on the senior team and not short of funds.

So (in my GAA experience) you get some people happy to pay more than their fair share and others who don't pay at all. On an annual basis, I pay loads more towards the GAA than I do to CI. Not sure which I get more value from though.

Junior

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120933782#Comment_120933782

The only thing I can say in favour of any GAA Club is that you can visit their Pitch/Field, you can see changing facilities, you can see a clubhouse. A Cycling Club, yarra sure it's a tuesday the club meets at Jimjo's old post office for a spin.. If it's sunday, well then they meet outside the Spar..

As a whole, a big issue for me is the fact that cycling clubs are invisible to the public, invisible for funding, and completely intangible. So you can feel that right your €50 Gaa Fee keeps the lights on, the grass cut, jerseys for the youths etc.

beggars_bush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120933802#Comment_120933802

Unless your club has a clubhouse, like many clubs in rural towns do.

Wishbone Ash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120934160#Comment_120934160

I can only think of one club that has it's own clubhouse.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120935162#Comment_120935162

Bray I'm guessing.

Don't forget Islandeady!

Wishbone Ash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120935269#Comment_120935269

Yes, Bray.

I'd forgotten about Islandeady. No doubt 'The Ringer' helped smooth the way there!

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120935162#Comment_120935162

I'm based in Kildare where allegedly most GAA clubs managed to improve their grounds including building big clubhouses all courtesy of the taxpayer via Charlie McCreevey

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120934830#Comment_120934830

Underage and Ladies teams generally get to use the main pitch for matches at my GAA club, but are routinely dumped out of the new dressing rooms for the men's teams. A bit like school "voluntary" contributions, there's an expectation that any and every fund raising initiative is financially supported (even if it seems most of the money goes to the senior men's team).

The height of the additional expectation above my annual subs for my cycling club is that I marshal at one of the two open races. My club does have an active leisure section, which is supported through club funds. This is a fairly recent development - it needed the leisure members to support and get active. The club have coaches, who are more active with the leisure side with skills advice than with the racing members.

I know a few groups that act as de facto clubs* (jersey's, regular meet points etc) - which is all fine when all is going well, but I do wonder (given our litigious society) how they'd fair if there's an incident.

*One I know is made up of CI and/or TI members of various clubs, so would assume ok, but another one has no affiliations afaik.

The Davestator

The One Day licence is 20 euro. There is a cycle against suicide sportive in my locality soon and its 50. I would like to do it, as would a number of my friends but we are not doing it because of the ODL. The charity is going to be down at least 300 in fees because of the ODL that used to be €2 not too many years ago.

mamax

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120952622#Comment_120952622

Our club holds a sportive for local charities so when CI upped the one day licence fee by €10 we dropped the reg fee by €10 so the total fee remains the same for the cyclist this year.

But it's the charities that loose in all this, is there a way to run and insure a sportive without CI ???