If cycle lane bollards don't belong in Architectural Conservation Areas, why do cars?

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841193#Comment_120841193

There is no difference in the visual impact of the cars themselves. However there are far fewer disability parking places required than normal cars. They also tend to need to be closer to business.

It is possible to have a car park at locations around the city and keep the streets more or less clear of car parking as the people driving the cars can walk to their location. It would mean you could have disability places and loading bays without really affecting the streetscape.

The street in the opening post looks awful due to the bollards and the car parking. You could widen the footpaths, use staggered car parking at both sides as traffic calming so that the road could be shared by cars and bikes, it would allow you to introduce greenery into the street also which would make the whole street a more pleasant place. Cars and bikes would still be allowed, there is still some parking for businesses.

Something like this.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841151#Comment_120841151

Yes, obviously I can read.

Based on your first reply to me, it would appear that you can't! Or maybe you'd like to respond to what I actually said rather than what some other interpretation only you derived?

Do you need to be so rude?

I wasn't being rude. I asked a simple question given that you completely failed to understand what I had previously written. If I were going to be rude, you'd know it!

One of the fundamental rules of Boards is not to be disrespectful of other posters because they don't agree with your opinion.

I'm aware of the rules, thanks.

"Attack the post, not the poster".

Again, that wasn't an attack - it was a question. You barged in and made a claim that I had posted something when this is patently untrue. I note that @irelandrover also pointed this out to you when they posted the following (before my "rude" reply):

But the poster didn't say what you claim. They said removing widespread parking, so still some available and cars still allowed.

They also didn't mention any extra accommodations for bikes.

So, asking nicely with flowers and bows on it would you like to answer my actual points?

monument

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840852#Comment_120840852

I was not trying to be condescending -- I was asking because you seem to be arguing with points that I am not making. I agree with you that bollards shouldn't be used. At most, I think they should only be used where there are no other options (which doesn't include the example in the OP), should only be used in the short term and should be even more so avoided in historic settings.

But given that you made the point, I think for most car use claiming it's necessary and cannot be replaced has been proven wrong over and over again.

Wheelchair and disabled access is an exception, just like emergency access is. Re the difference -- there's a big difference between say 6 disabled spaces and 60 cars. But you're shadowboxing here. I certainly wasn't saying car parking should be reduced for the sake of it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841204#Comment_120841204

Sorry, I'm not engaging further, as I'm not allowed an opinion here.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841266#Comment_120841266

You’re allowed an opinion. It’s just that it would be great if that opinion was in any way related to the thread instead of the victimisation that you seem to feel. Go back, read the OP again.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840951#Comment_120840951

I would imagine that most of the buildings in thd picture are also private property and only benefit the owner or tenants.

So what.

monument

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841317#Comment_120841317

Well said.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120839780#Comment_120839780

Roads are static, they are a facility for motorists, they don't create any revenue, they are ugly for the most part.

nachouser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058304684/if-cycle-lane-bollards-dont-belong-in-architectural-conservation-areas-why-do-cars

Sure why not stick it up in AH to get a broader response? Not everyone is watching this sub.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120843628#Comment_120843628

"cyclists don't even pay road tax"

monument

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841266#Comment_120841266

With my mod hat on, as the saying goes, I just want to make this clear:

When I'm acting as a mod, I really don't care what your views are. I've just recently infracted people for taking the piss out of people who seem like trolls (and mods hate trolls) and I've infracted people who I agree with on cycling issues in threads.

If I want to spend any time on here, I want to be posting as a normal poster, moding is boring really, and then the complaints are even worse when they are based on other people's biases and not mine.

Loueze was infracted only for backseat moderating in this thread -- something they and others were just warned about the other day in another thread. They were not infracted for anything else.

-- moderator

Larbre34

I originally raised this, albeit tangentially to the matter being discussed, but to sum it up; its about the City Council being so mercenary about private cars and so irresponsible and offhand about other environmental issues in the City for which they are responsible, namely littering the place with poorly designed, cheap and unnecessary street furniture, especially in conservation areas. These things are touted as "temporary", but end up being left in place for years.

On this particular issue, for me, its simple enough.....

Cars are moveable and so DON'T impact heritage areas. Road signing, lining and street furniture are permanent and so they DO impact heritage areas.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120844164#Comment_120844164

Remove cars, no need for any of it. Simple.

Seth Brundle

Cars are moveable and so DON'T impact heritage areas. Road signing, lining and street furniture are permanent and so they DO impact heritage areas.

Cars do impact heritage areas and to suggest otherwise is absurd. The Georgian mile looks very different now (or pre-cycle lanes) if you were to compare it to a pedestrianised or low traffic alternative.

I'm not denying that the ability to park cars in the area will be necessary to some but currently the numbers parked do take away from the visual streetscape. Similarly the likes of St. Lawrence's Rd in Clontarf looks a lot poorer with a permanent line of cars on either side of it.

I'm not disagreeing with you that signs and other street furniture impact heritage areas. However, whilst I'd prefer if planters or something more attractive were used to segregate bikes from cars, the ugliness of the bollards are somewhat necessary to help improve road safety until a more suitable alternative can be installed (whenever that might be). Nonetheless, I think the shite looking plastic is a big improvement in road safety thinking when compared to a line of white paint - it's a pity people get so worked up about it yet can't see lines of cars parked as unattractive.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120844186#Comment_120844186

Is it simple? Is it?

Perhaps you'd explain to the class how ending the social and economic lifeblood of the City in one fell swoop would be simple?

Flinty997

What's that's got to do with architecture?

https://extra.ie/2022/08/29/news/irish-news/capel-street-coolest-in-world

Larbre34

Its not cool.

Its cool for about 10 minutes at lunchtime, otherwise its a sketchy deserted kip.

Ask the local traders (not hospitality) how cool they think it is.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120844316#Comment_120844316

Hyberbolé much?

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120844336#Comment_120844336

Who ever wrote that article didn't have a clue what they were talking about.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120844539#Comment_120844539

So cool AND simple AND architecturally amazing.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120844164#Comment_120844164

Cars are moveable and so DON'T impact heritage areas. Road signing, lining and street furniture are permanent and so they DO impact heritage areas.

This is absurd logic. There is basically always cars there, what difference does it make that they are different cars each time?

Flinty997

Cars also require Street furniture. The bollards are for cars. Parking meters, signage for parking. Traffic lights.

Then you've to consider all the pollution noise and vibration caused by traffic. What effect on the buildings that had.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120844164#Comment_120844164

"Cars are moveable so they don't impact heritage areas" is, I think, a statement that, on mature consideration, you might want to retract. The damage done to architectural heritage by motoring and by the construction/installation of facilities for motoring is colossal; everybody knows this. The adverse impact of parking facilities is only a tiny, tiny part of this.

Nobody who accepts without comment the things we do to our cities to accommodate motorists can be taken seriously if they object to much fewer and less obtrusive things that we do to accommodate cyclists. Whatever else may motivate such a person, it is not a concern for the quality of the urban environment.

I take your point about poorly-designed and cheaply implemented facilities; I think that's valid. But it's not a problem that we only find with cycling infrastructure, is it? I would welcome a commitment to better design and a higher priority for the quality of the urban environment. But the road users who are likely to be most adversely affected by that are probably motorists rather than cyclists (which, perhaps, is part of the reason why it doesn't happen).

Thelonious Monk

Dublin city is also ruined by the amount of signs on poles required absolutely everywhere to try and stop motorists from doing moronic things like driving in front of trams. Nearly all the clutter on College Green is exactly this.

Mrs OBumble

I wonder what the city would look (and smell!) like if we all returned to using methods of transport which match the age of the built area?

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120845321#Comment_120845321

well the air would be far cleaner and it wouldn't be noisy at all

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120845321#Comment_120845321

Why do people post this crap as if that is what anyone has proposed (aside from yourself yesterday)?

Larbre34

No, I wouldn't consider retracting it.

Cars, people, bikes, dogs, tour buses, delivery vans, coffee carts - all are part of the social and economic fabric, all move, all are movable.

If a clear vista of Dublin in the 18th Century is desired, it can be achieved in minutes.

Not so with painted lines, signage and plastic crap.

And its not just something the that comes with components of bike infrastructure, its the absolute mess of design and statutory signing and lining in DMURS that needs the bin.

Flinty997

You can't remove all the signage, painted lines, traffic lights, parking signates and bays and associated crap for cars in minutes. That's blatantly untrue. When were the cobbles replaced with tarmacadam for example.

If we ignore that and assume it's true, then the same applies to any cycling paraphernalia.

http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/app/uploads/2019/10/Paving-The-Conservation-of-Historic-Ground-Surfaces-2015.pdf

patrickbrophy18

To answer the question in the OP, I imagine it is because bollards and cars predate the concept of ACA compliance. Perhaps, if cars and bollards were introduced today, their presence would be more restricted. Obviously, the aesthetics of cars vary greatly depending on the make and model and is purely subjective. For example, luxury brands like Bentley or Mercedes may fit right in within an ACA.

I think it is universally accepted that the plastic bollards installed in recent years aren't of a high quality and are quite clinical looking. Moreover, they are probably put there temporarily to test the waters of cycle lane segregation until the funds are there to implement permanent proper grade separated cycle lanes. Other than that, I think retroactively banning cars from ACAs is inconsiderate for those who own cars in the affected areas.