TII light rail projects update - July 2023

marno21

https://www.tii.ie/public-transport/projects-and-improvements/p-t-active-projects-list/PT-Active-List-%282023%29-Final-5.7.23.pdf

Get stuck in.

Lots of great stuff on the way, shame it's so slow in the delivery

gooseman12

Agreed, desperately slow.

Also first time I've seen "initially as high quality bus service" in relation to the cork light rail. Implies some sort of brt by the sounds of it with an eventual upgrade to light rail

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120821385#Comment_120821385

What I find most bizarre about Cork light rail is the €2-3bn price tag

To me anyway 19km of surface light rail at €100m+ per km is demented. Luas Cross City cost €50m per km through the absolute heart of the city in Dublin. Some of the Cork Luas will be running through green fields.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120821385#Comment_120821385

I don’t get the obsession with avoiding a bit of under capacity. Once the light rail is built there will be increased densification, before that developers are rightly going to be sceptical of the route ever being delivered. Instead of messing around with BRT that will need its own extensive planning and consolation process and may or may not increase density, why not just build it right now? If it’s under capacity for a few years it’s not the end of the world.

namloc1980

Cork Luas to be a bus service first and then LRT was mentioned in CMATS: "The LRT will be preceded by a high frequency bus service between Mahon and Ballincollig. This will be delivered in the short-term to underpin higher development densities along the corridor including the regeneration of the Cork City Docks."

Overall the timelines are far too long and slow.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058304187/tii-light-rail-projects-update-july-2023

Desperate that Green Line -> Metro grade is not even being discussed right now, and we're burning money on these "capacity upgrades"

Economics101

Am I right in thinking that some projects are now planned to be delivered earlier than previously indicated in the NDP?

The Cork Luas cost while shown as twicw the Dublin cross-city extension may well include purchase of rolling stock, whihc at most was a marginal part of cross-city

Overall the TII document is to be welcomed and is very clearly presented. Now why have we nothing like this for heavy rail? Why is heavy rail not a TII responsibility, and left to the tender mercies of the NTA and the DoT?

brianc89

Let me get this straight......

- Luas Finglas (advanced stage of planning) has a 2029 to 2035 operation target

- Luas Bray (no firm plans whatsoever) has a 2030 to 2035 target

- Lucan Poolbeg (no firm plans whatsoever) has a 2030 to 2033 target

- Luas Lucan (no firm plans whatsoever) has a 2030 to 2036 target

Then there's the vague post 2042 plans for 8 additional Dublin Luas lines.

What's going on with Luas Finglas?

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120824925#Comment_120824925

No funding to proceed to construction in the NDP.

namloc1980

That document looks like a piece of fiction to be honest.

cantalach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120821834#Comment_120821834

Cork can’t even get on board with the BusConnects project. Seems that most local representatives are cheerleading the opposition to it. When you compare the modest land take and disruption required to deliver quality bus corridors with what would be required for on-street LRT, you can only conclude that the latter will never happen in Cork without a radical change in public opinion.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120825057#Comment_120825057

I would agree. Cork city councillors are very much against any transport development in Cork that doesn't involve more cars and car parking. Terry Shannon FF famously said he wanted the entire BusConnects scheme scrapped. What I can't get my head around is how in Ireland local Councils can effectively veto critical national infrastructure investment. It's wild.

A1ACo

In relation to above mention of initial, high quality bus service/ BRT preceding Cork Light Rail roll-out, there was discussion about EV (Battery) buses, EV 'Trolley buses' and particularly the most modern Trolley approach - Hybrid Trolley/Battery (EV) - bus options e.g. here:

Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland - Page 45 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

(Though clarification, the mentions I made of Articulated & Bi-articulated buses, were specifically in relation to modern articulated/ 'bendy' - Trolleybuses).

It was also mentioned, that it seems that Trolleybuses were discounted for Cork, and Light Rail (LRT)/ Trams chosen, as it was estimated that only LRT would meet projected Cork City demand levels.

Other poster(s) also posited that, Trolley buses BRT might represent a stepping stone of patronage growth, to Trams use for Cork, and may potentially have some of the same/ similar electrical equipment as Trams, for later upgrade to LRT.

Prague particularly, and Swiss and Austrian cities were some examples of modern articulated Trolleybuses, and Trolley/ Battery hybrid buses.

That, and that EV (battery) buses, and particularly Trolley/Battery Hybrid buses, may be an alternative to Trams/LRT in other cities besides Cork, and/or - could even be used as complimentary systems to Trams/ LRT in Cork (and other cities) on the less busy city routes.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120946073#Comment_120946073

As has been said by others a few times now, the reason that Trolley Buses won't work is because there will be staunch opposition to providing them priority on any route. In plain English, they'll be stuck behind the cars.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120951576#Comment_120951576

Trolleybus doesn't need to have a priority. Can use the bus lanes within the same priority measures as the buses currently have.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120954406#Comment_120954406

So, at least in the example of Cork, the trolleybus will sit in traffic with all of the cars.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120954406#Comment_120954406

Which is a disadvantage of trolleybus (and buses in general).

The advantage of trams/light rail/rail is that they to have their own priority and literally force cars out of the way. I know they aren't always, but ideally they are fully segregated from cars.

I don't see Trolleybus as a competitor to light rail, completely different scale of capacities. Trolleybus is largely the same capacity as a bus/BRT system, it is more of a question of what sort of drive train/power source your bus uses (Diesel / EV / Hydrogen / Trolleybus) rather then a competitor with trams.

Basically Trolleybus is just another bus with a unique power source system.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955448#Comment_120955448

Of course, same as the buses do. There's no huge difference between the buses and trolleybuses. Only the fuel is different... Due to the infrastructure expenses trolleybuses usually are built in dense areas so that a frequency would justify a fixed cost to maintain the infrastructure.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120955541#Comment_120955541

Trams themselves have no priority over other types of transport if a proper infrastructure allowing that is not in place or no proper rules of road established. But as a mode of transport tram has no priority (except Czechia where the rules of road allow trams to have a priority even over pedestrians. If a pedestrian crossing a road on a non-signaled pedestrian crossing hoping that an approaching tram will stop, then god help them, at some roads and junctions trams have a priority to merge etc, yet in Dublin a bus has to yield to traffic if a bus lane is merging). Junctions, car free streets, off road railroads, traffic lights etc are the infrastructure which allows that priority. This can also be enabled for buses and trolleybuses. Tram has an advantage of capacity. But there's also a much higher cost of maintenance.

markpb

It’s a great document full of bad news. It’s embarrassing to deliver piecemeal infrastructure (with the exception of MetroLink) at such a a low rate when we’re awash with money that is ideal for capital expenditure.

I’m curious about the grade separation along the Luas Green line, it would be a great addition but I can’t think which roads they would be able to close.

bk

"Trams themselves have no priority over other types of transport if a proper infrastructure allowing that is not in place or no proper rules of road established."

Eh, trams can of course have priority. We have one right here in Ireland. Much of the Green Line Luas is fully segregated. There are even trams around the world that end up going underground.

Of course where trams run on the street, then it is more mixed. I find though even on street running sections, trams and their infrastructure tend to dominate the street scape and force a sort of priority that you just don't see with buses (or trolleybus).

And given the relatively high cost of trams (compared to bus), it puts pressure on authorities to give them some sort of priority even on city streets. For instance cars are often banned from tram lines, trams can get priority at traffic lights, etc.

I'd argue that the higher cost and "permanency" of a tram line is a feature, rather then a bug.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120956233#Comment_120956233

I didn't say that trams can't have a priority. I specifically said that they don't until we create it with either infrastructure or rules, or both. I'm emphasising the need to focus to this as we may miss the fact that building a tram isn't enough - it has to be build in a way it would function effectively. So we need trams to have as higher priority as possible for as many km as we can. Currently Luas doesn't have a priority on all length of the route and this is my point. So we probably agree with each other, just using a different way to express the opinion. I just want to repeat that just building a tram system and expecting it to have a priority isn't enough. This is why I said that tram doesn't have a priority until it is actually created with additional measured. E.g., Red Luas is very slow in town and has no priority over other traffic at OCS junction. It can be created, though.

bk

Ah, I agree with you completely. We should be giving tram routes as much priority as possible. I think we just had our wires crossed :)

I suppose the point I was more getting too is that I don't see Trollybuses in any way a competitor too or alternative to a tram route. They definitely don't have the capacity of a good quality tram service and I very rarely see them have any more priority then a regular bus does. They are a potential alternative to a EV bus or BRT route, but not trams/Luas.

"E.g., Red Luas is very slow in town and has no priority over other traffic at OCS junction."

Yes, but I would say that is a bit different. Most of the traffic on OCS is buses and now the Green Line Luas, so it is more of a case of trying to prioritise different forms of public transport.

Some day we might need to think about doing a short tunnel under OCS for the Red Luas line. But that might be a bit out there.

cgcsb

If there isn't a change in enforcement I don't think even luas will work in Cork. I used to think Dublin was probably the most lawless city in northern Europe when it came to rules of the road, but I was corrected when I had the misfortune of driving in Cork City 2 weeks ago, its a New Dehli style free for all, Iseen all sorts:

- a driver stopped on the up ramp in a multi storey car park with a queue of traffic behind her so she could answer the phone.

- driving on a one way street, many cars were driving down it the wrong way and then at a T junction I stopped waiting to pull out on the main road. A guy on main road stops and indicates to turn illegally into the one way street, beeps at me, wants me to move out of the way.

-Many streets are barely 3.5m wide with cars parked everywhere, they're 2 way streets somehow and nobody wants to give way.

-bus lanes are a complete work of fiction, like Dublin is bad for this but not even 10% as bad as Cork

-I also seen lads who decided they were waiting too long at a red light and just decided to drive through on the pedestrian sequence.

-cycle lanes are free parking in most areas although there is an impressive few stretches of cycle lane in the city centre now that Dublin is sorely lacking.

In short we need culture change driven by strict enforcement and I don't see city councils (even in Dublin) as capable of meeting that. The NTA needs to impose no nonsense camera enforcement with heavy fines, run by AI with no sympathy.

ArcadiaJunction

Like a book of magic spells for teenage girls. "You can do this, no serious!"

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120825043#Comment_120825043

Sure there's no non-fiction shelf at the Department of Transport.

VeryOwl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120991199#Comment_120991199

I'm still amused by the last Dublin Transport Strategy review which aptly had a bunch of toy projects swirling into a bin as the front cover, and mentioned the now decade old Phoenix Park Tunnel as recent progress.

We just have to hope that this time it really is different.

BagofWeed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120964344#Comment_120964344

Cork is a hideous place to drive in but it's even worse again for public transport. It'll only get worse as it's another Galway, filled with the essence of anti progress. The Bus Connects has already had most of it's plans for efficient more reliable routes cut to shreds, so what we'll eventually get will just be extra buses that will still be stuck in heavy traffic. The tram is just waffle talk too and will never happen, just jobs for the boys in the planning and design sectors and then years of decision making, objections, postponements and repeat again in the 2050's. North ring road & Northern distributer road, never happen.

The city will soon reach a progress plateau in which it'll grind to a halt with any more development. A city stunted by it's own uselessness in planning.

cgcsb

Well we've seen busconnects in Sout Dublin morph into a 1970s style road widening programme, removing footpaths for car lanes etc. So not holding out any hope for Cork tbh, the NTA seems to have devolved into a car lobbyist

specialbyte

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994362#Comment_120994362

Point to one location in BusConnects Dublin where this is happening? If anything the NTA are being pretty ambitious on restricting general motor traffic along a number of corridors using bus gates, one-way systems or filtered permeability. Here's is what that all looks like when mapped out. Seems like a lot of traffic restrictions in south Dublin in Crumlin, Kimmage, Rathgar, Rathmines, Portobello and Baggot Street.

Yes there is some road widening taking place. Though frequently that is for cycle lanes or removing short pinch points. For the most part there is no wholesale road widening programme to provide car lanes.