Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120863129#Comment_120863129

You're absolutely right there but it all comes back to cost at the end of the day. The UK has a more complex approach to when it comes to PSO v commercial basically if a service is making money then it's a fully commercial route that gets no funding at all from the government and for routes that do not make money then the local council will step and fund the service contracting it out to whoever runs the majority of services in that area. I agree it's not a model to be followed here.

Well here in Ireland the NTA don't only determine the spec of the buses but they actually own the buses themselves and can decide who should operate them. DB do not own the GT, SG or PA classes and GAI don't own any buses bar the ones they use for the 197 and training buses. Anything since 2012 is NTA owned I'm fairly sure it's the same for BE too.

Electric buses haven't taken off so much on the continent I believe as CNG have always been quite popular in cities on the continent as are trolleybuses with less of a focus on pure diesel buses. All require infrastructure which we don't have. This why I say the NTA should with buying hybrid buses until charging infrastructure is in place.

This I think has always been the problem in Ireland we look too far ahead but don't think of the short term challenges. Those electric buses shouldn't have gotten near being manufacturing without the charging infrastructure in place. Remember the PA have a plug in facility so they use chargers too.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120863551#Comment_120863551

All require infrastructure which we don't have

This argument has been rolled out many times about electric cars as well. Infrastructure, in the shape of chargers for these buses, are readily available, if the bus companies or the NTA/TII don't go about installing them at the depots before the busses are delivered that's just stupidity at play

bk

Over 4,000 EV buses were registered in Europe in 2022. By comparison over 2,000 CNG buses (including long distance coaches).

EV buses have massively taken off in Europe. It tends to be EV buses for city bus type services, while for now CNG remains popular for long distance coach services. CNG has mostly fallen it of favour for city type services.

Of course GNG and LNG are not zero emissions technologies, so while they can be a helpful stop gap, they definitely aren’t a long term option.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867507#Comment_120867507

I presume that would include trolleybuses too which have always been prevalent in Eastern Europe and parts of Italy

TranslatorPS

Trolleybus purchases recently aren't all that big, and mind you, there aren't that many networks either. Aside from Russia's 76 networks (and that includes the Asian side), it's Ukraine at 33, Czech Republic at 14, Bulgaria and Romania at 10 each, and Belarus at 7, all other countries on that side of Europe have 4 networks or less. On the other hand, every one and their mother is buying electric buses nowadays, especially the Eastern EU countries, as they can get EU funding for them – that's gone on standard diesel buses and I think not a whole lot of it is left for alternative fuels such as CNG. The craze about the latter has actually died off in Poland since the price of CNG has gone up way beyond diesel (something like 9.50 PLN/dm^3 of CNG against 6.30–7.00 PLN/l of diesel) sometime last year, with the few bus operators with major CNG fleets choosing to minimise their deployment in favour of standard diesels to cut costs: the 2006-2014 CNG craze is biting them in their backsides now. (It's actually doubly hilarious for me: my homecity will have 25 electrics by the end of the year in a fleet of ~180 that have CNG-powered heating systems... not to mention the 45-ish-strong CNG fleet itself.)

bk

Yes, trolleybuses have also largely fallen out of favour. Obviously the cities who already have trolleybus networks will largely keep them, at least for now, perhaps even some expansion of their networks, but I'm not aware of any cities planning to build new trolleybus network who doesn't already have one. Generally for any city starting from scratch, if they do decide to put up overhead cables, it is for trams like Luas.

Increasingly you also see new trolleybus with batteries fitted, so they can run off the overhead cable network when needed.

Most European cities are planning to go all in on EV buses and maybe some hydrogen.

TranslatorPS

Increasingly you also see new trolleybus with batteries fitted, so they can run off the overhead cable network when needed.

In Poland, Gdynia and Tychy took that to new extremes, launching full-time mixed running routes, with a mix of overhead connection and free running. In Gdynia it was mostly to anti-cable NIMBYism (on the 29), but now it's been taken even further and some routes which were traditionally trolleybus-only and bus-only see mixed running, depending on the vehicle diagram construction needs.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120872250#Comment_120872250

Rimini in Italy built a brand new BRT type system using overhead wires guess there's the option to turn it into a tram in the medium term if demand grows. Could be a good cheap short to medium term solution especially for smaller cities like Cork, Galway and Waterford.

https://www.sustainable-bus.com/trolleybus-tramway/brt-rimini-trolleybus-metromare/

dublinman1990

The BRT buses there in Italy are exactly like the ones in Belfast.

The difference with the ones in Belfast is that they do not have the charging cables up above them. I actually think that it is a lot easier to just have BRT buses in place used for free running services in Cork, Galway & Waterford. It is a damn sight easier without having to go through the planning rigmarole of asking permission from ESB networks to install both charging points and pantographs for overhead bus services in the interim in those parts of the country with them later converting to a Luas type system thereafter.

Did any of those potential issue ever came up when the Luas system was first built in Dublin?

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120872691#Comment_120872691

They are not for charging the buses they are what the buses run off exact same as a tram or an electric train but yeah their the same as the Vanhools used in Belfast for the Glider but trolleybuses instead of diesel.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120872928#Comment_120872928

You can now get full battery EV BRT buses. The Van Hool BRT which are hybrid battery trolleybus in your Rimini example and are Diesel up in Belfast, also come in full battery EV version.

BTW It isn't true to say Rimini is building a brand new trolleybus system, they have had trolleybuses sine 1939! Yes, this is an expansion of this network by adding a new route, but definitely not a from scratch example.

Putting up overhead cables comes with a very high up front capital cost and it faces big objections from residents and planners.

It might have made sense in the past versus Diesel BRT, but that very high upfront capital cost just doesn't make sense any more now that you have EV BRT. Building the same service (same length of vehicles, frequency and capacity) with EV BRT will be much cheaper then putting up overhead cables for a new build.

For cities like Cork, etc., the option is either EV BRT or Tram/Luas, trolleybus doesn't really make sense, much more expensive to build then EV BTR, but doesn't give you any extra capacity over the EV bus. Tram/Luas at least has the advantage of greater capacity, making the extra cost worth it if the demand is there.

"Did any of those potential issue ever came up when the Luas system was first built in Dublin?"

Yes, there were lots of complaints and objections about the wires ruining the architecture of the Georgian buildings, etc. People were calling for them to instead use the in ground charging system used in some French cities. Given the Georgian Society folks I'm surprised we managed to actually get Luas built as is.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120874321#Comment_120874321

Nah for Cork it's better if they go for a full tram system but for Limerick and Galway a BRT would make more sense as the populations don't warrant a full tram system. I was suggesting trolleybuses as they mean that overhead catenary and permanent way is already in place should the need arise to upgrade to light rail. It seems to me like a good halfway house between a light rail and BRT.

Also trolleybuses don't have to be charged up every night and can be charged in order to run off wires for certain stretches. The system in Rimini is more a guided bus way as it's completely separated from other road traffic I believe there's a good few other systems in France similar.

bk

“I was suggesting trolleybuses as they mean that overhead catenary and permanent way is already in place should the need arise to upgrade to light rail.”

But this doesn’t really make sense, you are massively increasing the up front cost of the BRT system, for the hope that at some distant future time that infrastructure could be reused for a future Luas/tram system. It would make the cost benefit analysis of the BRT today much harder to justify in the first place.

Also typically trolleybuses and trams don’t use the same type of overhead wires. Trolleybuses usually use two overhead wires, while trams usually only use one. So I’m not sure you could actually reuse that infrastructure, I’m struggling to think of examples of where trolleybuses wires were used for a tram! I’m aware of some lines that were upgraded to tram, but that involved closing the route, removing the trolleybus wires and putting up new tram wires. So I don’t think there is any benefit to what you are suggesting.

BTW in Italy they are also now experimenting with full battery powered trams, like Luas, but with batteries and no overhead wires!

”Also trolleybuses don't have to be charged up every night and can be charged in order to run off wires for certain stretches.”

Sure, but that isn’t really a big deal, overnight charging is fine for BRT and buses.

TranslatorPS

If it's still pertinent, Prague is relaunching trolleybuses (the original network having ran 1936–72). They've been trialling their target solution since 2017, but now they're going to go full time later this year: a duobus of sorts, running under wires for sections of the route and then running on batteries elsewhere. Trolleybus construction has changed – previously, they ran on the energy taken from the overhead wires much like trains do, but nowadays a lot of new constructions have the trolleys charge batteries and the energy is then taken from those rather than directly from the OHLE.

One of Prague's interesting solutions is to have the 119, the local route connecting the airport to the nearest metro station, be operated by 24-metre-long bi-articulated trolleybuses. To that end, they've ran a number of route tests using regular diesel bi-artics, probably for geometry and what not reasons, including in-service runs.

Trolleybuses run on dual wires because one of the wires has to function as the return (the minus), whereas tram and rail systems use the rails for this purpose. It's one of the reasons why any sort of trolleybus and tram/rail OHLE crossings are a right pain (the Swiss have something ridiculous in I believe Zurich). Either way, trolleybus wires also include turnouts, which are not necessary for rail solutions, not to mention the fact that I somehow just cannot recall trolleybuses having tensioners, which are a must with trams and railways (given the much higher vertical pressure from the pantographs than from trolleys). Some tramway networks choose to have the catenary wire too, depending on their requirements.

bk

Prague is a really interesting example. The project started back in 2014 and at first it wasn’t to be trolleybuses, they were instead experimenting with pure EV buses. However Prague is extremely hilly and they found at the time that it drained the batteries too fast and they weren’t suitable. So they switched to trolleybus instead. Though I think you could argue it is less a trolleybus and more an EV bus that happens to charge up at times from the overhead wires. On the first route only 50% of the route will have wires, with three sections of wires with no wire sections in between. Charge the battery while under the wires, but always running off the batteries.

Worth noting that while they are planning 4 of these “trolleybus” routes, the rest of the network is using regular buses and they are planning to switch all of those to EV bus, with over a hundred on order.

I suppose you could argue Cork is similarly hilly and so could use a similar solution. Though the planned LUAS route in Cork is all in the valley, no hills. It will be interesting to see the NTA try out the new EV double deckers in the hills of Cork and see how they perform.

It is interesting how all this tech is developing and the different options. In the past there was just two options, diesel bus or trolleybus (though there are some hybrid diesel trolleybuses!). Now we have EV buses, Hydrogen buses, EV buses that charge from overhead wires to different levels, EV buses that charge just at bus stops, etc.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120857397#Comment_120857397

Arguably theres still too many seats downstairs. Should be cut further and intended for PRM use, to get more standing on on short routes

d51984

From NTA press release: The NTA board has recently approved the ordering of an additional 210 buses from Wrightbus for delivery in 2024 under the framework agreement. This is in addition to the 120 ordered in June 2022, and the 91 ordered in Dec 2022. This brings to 421, the total number of electric buses due to enter service during the next 24 months.

Wrightbus have won another big tender, was really hoping they went the Volvo BZL way, however one can not judge until the electrics enter service. They seem to be proving popular across the water.

One things for sure though, the chances of any more orders from ADL are very very slim.

TranslatorPS

Prague is a really interesting example. (...)

With their hilliness they've also done something interesting: they're doing essentially fully electric buses, but instead of terminus charging, they're doing en-route charging, meaning that they can still maintain their current scheduling methods of primarily shorter layovers with a longer meal break layover (that usually stems out of extending a peak-hours bus for one or two more trips) instead of adding more and more buses in order to lengthen all the layovers for charging purposes.

Examples of the latter I can pull out of, say, Cracow: the weekend schedule on the 105 during school terms (with f-20 between 9am and 7pm, f-30 otherwise) can be done with three buses, but since the weekend was "electrified", four buses are needed in order to provide a 20' layover at the terminus with a charger (coincidentally, the opposite terminus maintained its 20' layovers...). Staying in Cracow, the 179 is electric every day, and the school term weekday schedule (f-12 5.30–18.30, then f-20 until end of service at 11pm) calls for 11 buses – the diesel schedule would require only 10. The weekend schedule (see 105 above) is a 6-bus schedule when electric, but diesel operation would only call for 5. There is one ridiculous example to be seen in Cracow though: the 144, which doesn't have chargers at either terminus, but instead includes empty runs to a charger about 2-3 km from its southern terminus, with an 8-bus weekend schedule that could be done in 6 in diesel, and a really strange 14-bus weekday schedule that has no peak-hours-only buses use the charger, while the full-day buses do.

Most large Central European cities that go into EV seem to go one of two ways: either extremely sizeable batteries that will provide in excess of 350 km of range with only but an overnight charge, or terminus chargers to top up the energy throughout the day. Unfortunately the latter usually means an increase in PVR. There are of course other solutions that @bk has mentioned, like the stop charging (which I believe is induction charging, but I worry about the energy losses in that), but I have not seen them applied personally, whereas the above mentioned Cracow's 179 is, well, on one of my commuting routes.

zg3409

Full electric busses are immediately viable on routes that are within the daily range of the busses available. Charging infrastructure is needed at depots which require planning and expensive once off upgrades like local transformers and substations. In some cases the old depot may not be suitably near high power supply so the overnight storage might have to move. It's mostly proven technology and very reliable. Often guarantees on batteries and long warranties are given to cover concerns.

Overhead wires is a known old technology but it has downsides mainly in terms of fixed inflexible routes. Hybrid is all the rage in terms of using a bit of overhead in cities and diesel outside of cities. As battery ranges increase overhead may not even be needed, but it depends on drivers breaks and storage depots.

CNG, hydrogen etc may have a place but batteries may win out on running costs and reliability alone. On longer city to city type services batteries alone may be impossible so again some sort of hybrid with a relatively big battery may work.

There is already orders for hybrid trains using overhead lines when on dart and using batteries when north of dart wires. These charge while driving on dart, and allow a couple of extra stations to be covered that don't have overhead wires. Destinations are only planned North if Dublin but stations south of Dublin like Wicklow town may be included on future tenders. It sounds like the batteries are cheaper than putting in the overhead wires.

A1ACo

It is interesting to see that in the last short few years, that EV battery buses may indeed, have mostly overtaken Trolleybuses benefits.

Though with the potential caveats that; batteries themselves would be very expensive, have their own construction environmental impacts, and may finally have weight impacts on road surfaces, tire and break wear, and road contact noise.

(Regenerative Braking, and separately tire & brake pad particulates pollution, as other related topics).

One advantage perhaps with larger battery, EV buses is that, they may take (store) all their required energy at night – when there is less loading on the national electricity grid - versus pure catenary EV buses (Trolley buses), taking it during the peak day requirements with everyone else.

It may be interesting, to see weight comparisons between EV battery only/ catenary only EV/ and Diesel only buses (with say half tank of fuel) – notwithstanding variations with large/ small battery EV buses, and Trolleybuses & Diesel buses with batteries hybrids.

I think it was said that Trolley buses were ruled out for the proposed Cork Tram line, as the expected flows were forecast to quickly exceed Trolleybus capacity, and that Trams were required for predicted flows. That been said, EV buses and/ or Trolleybus (hybrid?) for feeder sections and/ or hilly areas may not be the worst idea, or potentially as a Trolleybus hybrid with battery version in the other cities, on busy/ most demanding sections. 

Such adjacent tram, trolleybus, and standard bus systems seem to appear to work together in a number of countries e.g. Bern, Switzerland and Riga, Latvia, and may represent a good layered/tiered/ hierarchical provision of on-street public transport capacity, comfort, cost.

Historically I think there maybe have been some cities in Europe or the US, where the trams and trolleybuses had similar electricity supplies, presumably for some purchasing and maintenance commonality etc.

Also, there are at least a few examples where systems have upgraded/ downgraded from Trolleybuses to Trams, and vice versa, but some of these examples go back a long time, and include Bergen, Norway and in… Belfast (!), also cities in Germany, and in some other central, and eastern European cities etc.

Additionally, most modern, recent Tram/ Light rail systems work on 750v DC, while most trolleybus (mostly long established) systems work on lesser power, 600v DC, but…

- Recent and modernised trolleybus systems e.g. Avellino and Cagliari, Italy and Quito (BRT Trolleybus), Ecuador use 750v DC.

(See for Quito, an interesting international governments' finance backed Environmental projects organisation -

C40 Cities Finance Facility | Quito - Electric bus corridor (c40cff.org) &

Quito, Ecuador — Kiepe Electric Wien (kiepe-electric.at) - with v. detailed spec sheet – noting 60km/h top speed for that Trolleybus type…

and stated as would easily cope with Quito up to c.16 degrees slopes (note road slopes mentioned elsewhere as a consideration in details for some Swiss trolley/ bus routes) and that scaled back upgrade project in Quito as of 2021 VSrlqK1NFo1JRscuanp3m5oWHYhA6dVLcfsdvOyQ.pdf (cff-prod.s3.amazonaws.com)).

So presumably there is some scope for reusing the same electric poles, and maybe lineside electric equipment - for transitioning between any modern Trolleybus system at 750kv DC, and Tram system also at 750kv DC (amps may vary?) – or running adjacent/ criss-crossing systems adjacent and having commonality and some shared infrastructure etc.   

A1ACo

Surprisingly, double-decker Trolleybuses were once a thing in England, and…Belfast – tri-axle – so looking a bit like old Dublin Bus tri-axle (VT) buses.

The interesting Prague Trolleybus - Hybrid with Batteries approach, would appear on the face of it, to be a good hybrid approach to all electric propulsion, without limitation to only under wires, but also less vulnerable to battery depletion, and reducing heavy battery weight and purchase cost, environmental impacts. 

Its genesis may have some relation I imagine, to an EU financed study project ‘Trolley’ (2 phases I think) in test cities, going back a few years (c.2021-2).

Inforegio - Project of the Week : "TROLLEY" - Seven cities to promote trolleybuses as solution for smart urban mobility in Europe (europa.eu)

& the seeming update 2022 with a results presentation diagrams/ details of ‘IMC’ (In Motion Charging).

PowerPoint Presentation (electricmobilityeurope.eu)

Otherwise, for the ultimate in ‘Bendy-buses’ (N.B. - look them up as ‘articulated buses’ and ‘bi-articulated buses’), seems to be bi-articulated buses, up to c.25m length (e.g. compared to usual circa 10.4m length double-deckers), produced by companies such as Hess AG, Van Hool, Skoda and Solaris, and operating in places such as Bern, Lausanne, Lucerne, and Zurich, Switzerland, Vancouver, Canada, Salzburg and Linz in Austria, Lyon, France, Milan and Bologna, Italy and in Tallinn, Estonia.

This is notwithstanding examples of the trolley system in Tallinn being reduced in recent years with EV battery buses, proposed revival schemes in Vincenza, Italy and Leeds, UK both cancelled (and in the UK after an apparent tortuous, divisive and complicated process – not the example to take it would seem!). This is also noting, the small and relatively recent, but also seemingly not ever expanded trolley bus system, in Lecce, Italy, in a city noted as small for a Trolley bus system.    

Many Wikipedia articles include the route maps of the Italian, and other cities Trolley bus systems, and they are appear to be very much serving the core and outer core environs of city centres only – i.e. not starting out in the far suburbs then the city, and many as linear routes with small end loops, and some consisting of city loop routes.

If you are really bored, there are videos on youtube of the bi-articulated trolleybuses in Bern and Zurich, Switzerland, and Linz, Austria – that give a good impressions of both the interior, and exterior experience of their ‘Tram-like’ fairly quiet operation, and strong acceleration, and also tram-like interiors.

One of the great benefits of Trolleybuses over Trams/ light rail, is that - you don’t have to do a thing with the roads that they go on BUT…

as you can see on the videos, this sometimes means that you can get the:

- Look of Light Rail, but some of the Bangs of Buses!...

Obus Linz / Trolleybus Linz - Van Hool Exqui.City24T - YouTube

Trolley Bus in Zurich - Switzerland. - YouTube

& including interior environment (at 16 mins.) Lausanne

CH - Lausanne trolleybus / Lausanne Obus 2022 [4K] - YouTube

& Bern Trolleybuses disconnecting, and connecting themselves to the wires overhead (previously historic cited misshaps), and a big turn-around:

Bernmobil: Trolleybus fährt in der Länggasse mit Batteriebetrieb - YouTube

The ‘Hess AG’ trolley bus builder website has some interesting data sheets/ case examples - including for Lausanne, including nice interiors, and indicates – up to 30km range off-catenary, using battery, and that its bi-articulated 24.7m trolley buses use - two steerable axles.

And finally (!) maybe have a look at this:

Trolleybus VS Battery Bus - Which One Is The Future? - YouTube

A1ACo

Note that the above EU project presentation ( PowerPoint Presentation (electricmobilityeurope.eu) mentions in relation to Trolleybus and 'In Motion Charging' (IMC) mentions (page 12), that one of the 'Main Results' of Planning Context outcome was that -

'If necessary the infrastructure can be use for Future Tramway Projects'.

It also mentions a project utilising Trolleybus electric infrastructure to support EV car charging, ticket and info' machines, etc.

Plenty other info' on the EU projects, and project cities listed under the also cited website, trolley:motion – urban e-mobility (trolleymotion.eu) (including in Arnhem, Netherlands, and in Poland and Germany).

Trouwe Ier

Is there any further update on the roll-out of the EWs (and even the EAs) in Dublin?

There seemed to be a lot of trialling over July but that seems to have gone off the boil in August.

john boye

Yeah I was only thinking the other day that I haven't seen one out in weeks.

p_haugh

EWs back out on driver training going by this tweet from today

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1697571275474915827

dublinman1990

Very interesting video on Youtube here.

Dublin Bus WH1 has had it's hybrid decals stripped off while it's going a recent repaint cycle.

https://youtube.com/shorts/LqDevlikAJ0?si=NgFjaIQHFsXIG8E6

However; this video does not belong to me. It was filmed by someone else on Youtube.

TranslatorPS

All the hybrid trial buses are receiving repaints now – four years in service after all – and losing the complicated details.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121079700#Comment_121079700

Not sure why they're not repainting in the new fleet standard livery

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121079706#Comment_121079706

Aren't the 9 hybrid "prototype" buses actually owned by Dublin Bus, rather then the NTA?

I remember hearing that in the past, the DB bought them themselves. Might explain the different livery.

bk

BTW Mentioned over on the Irish Transport forum, type training for the EW class (double decker full EV bus) to start on the 123 and 15a/b route next Monday :)