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Gaa Stats collection

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  • 21-06-2023 8:58am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 10,402 ✭✭✭✭


    Anyone here have a template for collecting stats during hurling/camogie matches?


    A sheet to mark scores/scores/fouls for/against , puck outs won/lost etc .....

    I have tried search online, but nothing really ideal for it.


    Just asking here, before i have to make up one myself ! 😏

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... " #NoPopcorn



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,844 ✭✭✭kksaints


    We use the GAA scores stats plus app which is fairly useful for basics.



  • Registered Users Posts: 963 ✭✭✭thefa


    Have an app called GAA Match Reporter which does this if you’re handy on the phone.

    https://apps.apple.com/ie/app/gaa-match-reporter/id951356333



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,402 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    Hi. Thanks for the replies.

    I tried the on phone ones, but i found them too 'finicky' to use during a game.

    I ended up just designing my own A4 sheets for use during the game, and it is working out ok at the moment.

    The apps are ok, but you cant beat pen&paper for the real time info .

    (where puckouts are going/ who wins the puckouts etc ...)

    Its just my personal choice.

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... " #NoPopcorn



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,018 ✭✭✭TCDStudent1


    In my experience, it depends on what the manager / coach is looking for and what kind of detail you are going into after the match. The biggest benefit to using an app is that you can generally sync it with video. That means you can easily get to your kickouts, scores afterwards. With pen & paper, you cannot do that. The biggest benefit with pen & paper is that you have far more flexibility in designing it your way. I like to start with pen & paper to ensure that my method works. If it does then I create a template in one of the apps and do it from there. It saves me time then as I have all the main events coded during the match. But everyone is different.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,402 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    The video bit wouldnt happen anyway 🙂

    I agree, paper has its pros and cons - This is the template that i use.

    I put a tick in the cells on the top part for frees/shots/fouls etc.

    The bottom half is for shots taken and puckouts - green= puckout won + a score.

    Red is puckout lost + a wide.

    I am primarily the club pro, but i used a lot of stats in my reports, so senior coaches want me to record them for them so they can keep track of players shooting/puckouts/ shots etc during the game.

    How would you create a template in an App?

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... " #NoPopcorn



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,018 ✭✭✭TCDStudent1


    It depends on what app you use and if your club invests in them. Some free apps will just provide pre-defined templates that you cannot change yourself. There may be free ones out there that allow you to create your own. I am not as familiar with the free apps as I used to be. I see a lot of clubs in Galway using Performa these days. That's a subscription based software but it is handy for clubs, particularly if the people you have doing the work aren't hugely technical. I remember looking at a free online based one last year that allowed you to create your own templates too and was pretty nifty. Cant think of the name right now but will look it up.


    If you are not syncing it with video, I would stick with what you have above. It's just as good. I feel that technology is really only beneficial if you are aligning it with the video and editing etc. afterwards.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,656 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    Agree with tech only being beneficial if syncing with footage. Performa's software is fine, but is restricted due to being iPad only and hasn't been updated now in about 8 years I think. They're moving away from the app and more towards streaming it looks like. At that too, it's highly restrictive and really gives no ability to add in your own bits on it. I don't consider it user-friendly at all.

    Pen and paper for what the coaches the OP mentions want, is fine.

    What you're restricting yourself with using pen and paper, is probably putting cumulative data together would be a bit messy. Match-on-match stuff really isn't great if you wanted anything long-term.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,018 ✭✭✭TCDStudent1


    yeah, I agree with all of that. I guess if the op wanted to put cumulative data together, he could easily use Excel for that. Might already have it through work etc. So possibly free.

    That's interesting about Performa moving towards streaming rather than the app. I can understand why they might pivot in that direction.

    I believe to get this stuff correct you need to know why the management wants the information and how they intend to use it. For example if a team concedes the opposition kick / puck out, does it really make sense for you to be counting how many of these your team has 'lost'? Or maybe you have "Won", "Lost", "Conceded"....

    I don't think there is any perfect solution out there but you will hear a lot of talk about these great analysis systems and match targets that teams have. However, you are better off implementing what suits YOUR team.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,656 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    Exactly. Even at that - Winning/Losing a puckout tells nothing of the story really. What comes after?!

    The absolute most miserable stat these days is Score Source eg ‘scores from turnovers’ that I see thrown around the lot. There are so, so, so many variables in a phase of play, that a blanket ‘ah you can’t be conceding 1-07 from turnovers’ screams clueless to me



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,018 ✭✭✭TCDStudent1


    Yeah, same with scores from kick / puck out. So much can happen after. If a goalkeeper scuffs the kick but his team still end up winning it and it becomes a score it gets counted as a score from a kick out. In my opinion, when something like that happens, it should not be included in the stats of the game. A far more insightful stat would be to accumulate the figures of a specific kick out strategies that your team are using. i.e., 5 / 10 successful deployments of ko strategy 1 resulted in shots, 3 / 10 successful deployments of ko strategy 2 resulted in shots. Something like that. And that's where I think video becomes key as a tool to improve players. If you have a kick out strategy and players aren't fulfilling their roles, show them the video to highlight it. Then hopefully the next match they will have learnt and do what they are supposed to. Make small improvements like that in every match and you should get a team moving well. And this is maybe where some management teams fall down. They get a 'stats guy' instead of properly integrating an analyst into the management team. Have a selector who is responsible for presenting the data / video from an analysis perspective - it won't tell the full story but it might give a different perspective.

    Score source does seem to be the 'fashionable' stat at the moment but I agree with the flaws that you pointed out above.

    Regarding the OP's template, it could be that he fills this out for 5 matches. And lets say the number 6 on their team has lots of frees against them. The coach could use this information to tell the player he needs to be more disciplined. So these figures do have their place in the game. Now, number 6 may tell the manager that he totally disagrees, that he had no other option than fouling etc. And that's where the power of video analysis comes into play (imo).



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,402 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    some great points lads.

    I totally understand the points about video analysis. But i doubt that that will happen - Money isnt there for video recording.


    *i am a coach for an u14 boys soccer team, and during a recent match the other side asked if i mind if they recorded the game using the Veo system.

    I said ok, but you have to send me on the recording. So he did. And WOW.

    Its some tool. I went through the game myself, picking out points where boys could have done better/positioned better etc.

    I them brought them to the club house and we watched the game, and i was asking them questions on what they think caused the goal/could be done differently/better etc.

    Its great to be able to watch players from that perspective , its so different than in 'real time' during a game.

    You can tell people something 100 times, but show them once is so much better.

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... " #NoPopcorn



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,656 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    Yeh exactly

    I'm invovled with Clubs/Counties/Colleges with Boys and Girls ranging from 16-38 I'd say, and the most important things these days for context to give them are targets (correlated from cumulative data) and clips to coincide those



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,018 ✭✭✭TCDStudent1


    My feeling is that it will have the biggest impact on teenage players where you can use it as a tool to improve them. Very hard for a 30 year old player to change based on stats or video. And again, I feel thats where a lot of clubs fall down. They place an emphasis on this stuff at senior level and completely ignore it at underage level.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,656 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    So true. Getting them even interested in it at a younger age is key. It's a funny one now - I've had players in underage Intercounty structures (Male and Female) that have been frustrated with the fact that when they went back to their clubs, they have either nothing or whatever they have is of no value to them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,402 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    Update.

    The club have decided to purchase a VEO camera.. Excellent tool to analyse and then be able to give feedback to players..

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... " #NoPopcorn



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,656 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    I think VEO is good for anything bar Hurling and Camogie. The unmanned camera is obviously handy though.

    For proper data collection I find it misses too much and doesn't zoom enough.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,402 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    i got footage of a county team playing a challenge match, under lights (not very good lights at that ..!) and the quality was excellent.

    Massive range of stats available - and easily accessible.


    A few examples. And you can highlight those , and they are visible to watch



    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... " #NoPopcorn



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,656 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    Ya it’s decent - I just don’t think it’s quite there for Hurling and Camogie yet is all



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,018 ✭✭✭TCDStudent1


    How much did the Veo cost?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,402 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    Its just under €1000 for the camera, and about the same per year for storage, and the software to do the analysis.

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... " #NoPopcorn



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,018 ✭✭✭TCDStudent1


    And when you say the software to do the analysis - I assume you still have to manually tag those events, or is there an AI element to that as well?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,656 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    There’s an AI element for basic events like puckouts, turnovers (it gets that wrong a lot from my experience) etc.

    But if you wanted take-ons, tackle attempts, individual possessions for each player then no.

    Anything slightly intrinsic it doesn’t track automatically. There’s no software for that yet, hence why Opta still have 5 people like tagging Soccer matches instead of an automated software!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,018 ✭✭✭TCDStudent1


    Yeah, I have read about an Irish company called Rugbysmarts who are supposed to be creating software to automate tagging / coding. From what I have read, it is still in its infancy though.

    I have seen Veo footage but no first hand experience of it. While the footage has mostly been fine, I would still prefer a good camera person over the Veo footage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,656 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    Ya a lot of companies like to market that they have ‘AI’ for auto-tracking/tagging but it’s incredibly basic still. Still a mile away from a camera being able to decipher a clearance from a pass etc. At least for full accuracy things will be manual for a while.

    I agree on manned cameras. I have insight into over 50 Club/County setups through my work and I’d say about 3 or 4 are using automated cameras now, but the rest are still manned. Obviously the height on VEO is good though if you’re on a flat club pitch with no stand - but more and more teams now are using the tower camera thing which is manned but good height - and you still get to choose when and where to zoom in.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,402 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    Normal view...

    full zoom .....

    A wee bit fuzzy , but you can still see whats going on ......


    Once you have all the parameters set for the different 'tags' (shots, free, turn over etc) they stay as your settings?

    So you only have to set it up once ..... (afaik)

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... " #NoPopcorn



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,018 ✭✭✭TCDStudent1


    There were numerous clubs in Galway last year using Veo cameras. At one double header, there were 3 Veo cameras lined up beside each other! You would have to think there is a better way than every club forking out money for doing the same thing. If they could band together and centralise it or something....



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,018 ✭✭✭TCDStudent1


    It's interesting you said earlier in this thread that the money wasnt there in the club for video and now you have a Veo - what did you say / do to convince them?!



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,402 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    New management team, and 'jps' money and sharing it with the Hurling club.

    I had offered to record games with a camcorder, and then brought up the VEO camera again.

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... " #NoPopcorn



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,656 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    There's specific deals on VEO unfortunately that prevent teams from sharing accounts.

    I agree on the footage thing and I've spoken to County Boards, the GAA, Camogie Association etc. numerous times about it, but the push back generally comes from Clubs, who think it's still scary for other teams to have footage of them.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,018 ✭✭✭TCDStudent1


    Thats an outdated view at this stage anyway. In my experience, if a club wants to get the video of a match, they will always find a way to get it.



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