Looking for some marathon training plan advice - Hal, Hanson, P&D, Daniels?

MiketheMechanic

I have the Chicago marathon coming up on October 8th 

I'm looking for the best marathon training plan to get me to my target time of 3.10-3.15?

Hoping for some input from you knowledgeable people

@Murph_D @ThebitterLemon @Unthought Known @Swashbuckler @Krusty_Clown @Singer @shotgunmcos @Sandwell 🙂

A bit about me:

Chicago will be marathon number 12 hopefully.

Did Boston in 3.18.48 last year. (race report here) [18 week HH training plan - 735 miles covered before marathon day]

Did London in 3.19.16 in 2021. [18 week HH training plan - 720 miles covered before marathon day]

Best DCM was 3.25.14 in 2019.

I have been using the Hal Higdon Advanced 1 plan (18 weeks) for the past 5 marathons.

I tweak it slightly to add around 5% more mileage during the weekday runs, (felt I could use a little more mileage)

and do the long run 5 weeks out at around 22 miles (not 20) for time on feet.

and the long run 3 weeks out at 21 miles (not 20)

I also do the 3/1 thing on the long Sunday runs where you do the first three quarters of the long run easy, the add in some marathon pace miles for the last quarter. 

It builds over the second half of the plan and maxes out at around 6-7 miles at MP.

In fact, I've used some version of Hal Higdon for all my marathons - going back to the Novice 1 plan in 2012.

I like that they are fairly simply structured and build the mileage and effort gradually.

While they have been tough in places, I always felt pretty well prepared for my marathons and didn't get injured.

I'm currently running around 35 miles a week as a base. Long run is up to 14 miles without much effort, but mileage will obviously drift up over the coming weeks.

My plans usually peak at around 55-60 miles per week 3 weeks out from the target marathon.

My 10k time is around 41.30 at the moment and around 20.10 for 5k. Mallow 10 mile was just over 68 mins in March.

Great Limerick Run Half Marathon time in May was 1.31.14

So to get "to the next level" and tackle a flat, fast course like Chicago in 3.10-3.15 , what plan should I follow?

Do I stick with Hal Higdon Advanced and maybe just tweak it a little more, adding some speedwork and a bit more mileage?

If it ain't broke, and all that...

Or do I go for a new plan, like Hanson, P&D 55 mile, or Daniels?

I have the P&D book (and plan) - the P&D 18 week 55 mile seems doable and not too much different to Hal.

I am catching up on Hanson by reading up on the thread here on boards - I'm halfway through the 500+ post thread! 

Would Hanson get me in good shape for Chicago? I'm a bit worried about the time/mileage commit.

How about Daniels? Any fans here?

 

Any advice greatly appreciated, or if I need to provide more details, feel free to ask.

MtM 

marathon2022

15 weeks to race week, your normal plan sounds good, no injuries etc. If it's not broken don't fix it. Chicago is a lot flater than Boston I hear so maybe a 3.18 Boston level might translate to 3.10 - 3.15

I've been stagnant for the last three marathons at 3.17, 3.16, and 3.18. all using an online free BAA plan. Last week I started the p&d 18/70 to try for the 3.10 in Amsterdam the week after you.

You might be ok dropping in to p&d at week 15 on the 18/55 but I don't know.

Good luck, 🤞

Lazare

I'm one week into Hanson for Amsterdam, so week 2 of it for you should you decide on it.

I went with it after reading some cracking race reports last year, Sandwell's Amsterdam, Unthoughtknown's Chicago. Then reading the main Hanson thread.

I love the simplicity of it in terms of structure. No real thinking involved.

After reading the book it's the first time I've really felt like I understand the purpose of every single stride I'll make in a marathon block.

You will have to get your head around the concept of maxing out at 16m though. Reading the book may be the best way of convincing you.

Best of luck with it whichever route you take.

MiketheMechanic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120738687#Comment_120738687

Thanks for the input - ya, I reckon I could drop into week 3 or 4 of most of the 18 week plans. My long run on Sunday will be 15 miles and I'll be around 40 miles for the week, which line up will with P&D and is probably slightly ahead of Hal Higdon.

Sticking with Hal Higdon is the safe and sensible approach. I just hope that I'm not missing a trick by leaving a little bit of performance behind that a new plan might help me to achieve - you know, shake things up a little bit. As long as my body and schedule can accommodate it.

MtM

MiketheMechanic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120739101#Comment_120739101

Thanks for the reply. Are there excel versions of Hanson floating around that I can customize with dates etc? I like to print out my training plan and put it up on the fridge and a few places etc.

I enjoyed @Unthought Known's Chicago report also, very inspiring and I'm sure I'll have a few more questions for him before race day 😀. 

I'll check out Sandwell's Amsterdam report

Do people doing Hanson ever modify the 16m max long run, to take it up to say, 20 miles? Purely for psychological purposes? Or would that ruin the benefits and purpose of the plan?

MtM

Sandwell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120739667#Comment_120739667

I like to use http://www.expl.space/plan to customise Hanson/P&D etc. You can export to a calendar or create a file to print out.

Regarding the 16 mile run, I'd say most first timers to Hanson cheat a bit and do exactly that. I did so twice just to experience the time on my feet and it didn't seem to do me any harm. That said, I'm currently in week 5 of my second go around and this time I plan on sticking to the 16 miles. The thing to remember is that on those weeks you're also doing 13-16 miles on a Thursday with 9 or 10 of them at marathon pace. 16 miles at a steady effort (MP+40 secs) three days later is a lot.

Murph_D

I think with your marathon experience it really doesn't matter at this point which of those plans you choose - they are all capable of getting you the result you want, if you commit to the method/plan and execute it properly. The thing that's helping you improve from year to year is more the accumulated mileage and ongoing improvement of your aerobic ability that comes from training and racing (sustainably) year after year.

I've used P&D and Hanson for marathon - personally I prefer Hanson because it feels more marathon specific, and because it is built more around marathon pace runs than any other approach I've used. Also it has huge 'strength' sessions. (It has speed too but front loads that in the first half of the plan, unlike P&D which seems to include more of it in the second half - a notable difference between the approaches.)

They will all get you there. You have the experience. Just make sure your target is achievable - you need to start training at current fitness (so base your paces on current or recent race times, not goal marathon time). My slight concern would be that even your half time from earlier this year looks tight for a 3:10 marathon. Maybe not too tight for a 3:15. So which is it, 3:10 or 3:15? I know I'm conservative with goal times, but for me a 5 minute range for a marathon target is very wide. If you're in 3:15 shape and start at 3:10 pace you'll probably end up running 3:25. But you know all that already.

I'd say if you're worried about that Hanson 16 mile long run range, you shouldn't be. The plan is relentless about marathon pace on tired legs. It does not need adjustment for your marathon goal (and I know a runner much older than you who went sub-3 without altering it a jot).

Good luck whatever way it goes!

skyblue46

Just to echo what D has said I'm wondering where the 3:10 target comes from. It's not something that jumps out as obvious from the times you list for other distances. Are you a good reliable diesel?

Wottle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120741994#Comment_120741994

The 68 at Mallow 10 miler would have them in that range. The expected mileage 55 to 60 looks good too.

The 21 mile long run 3 weeks out looks close or at least that's STH I'm changing this year, going to have it four weeks out and it'll be 22/23 miles.

With 11 marathons under the belt, tactically how have they gone? Negative splits? Even, blow ups?

skyblue46

I don't agree that a 68 10 mile indicates a 3:10. It possibly does on a pace calculator but I wouldn't be wagering a lot on it in the real world. All the listed times are more indicative of a 3:15/18 to me

Wottle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120742505#Comment_120742505

It does show the potential if they get the training right.

The half isn't a million miles off either, giving a 3'12 equivalent.

A 10 mile/Half in a pace calculator is a great starting point.

Unknownability

I used Hanson for the Chicago Marathon and had great success. I find the plan very straight forward and easy to read and use.

I used the plan initially in Manchester and got a 3'10 having aimed for 3'15 and in Chicago I got 3'02 having aimed for 3:05, so it definitely worked for me.

I have an excel of the plan somewhere if you need it but I'm sure you can find it online.

The Tuesday and Thursday sessions are tough but very rewarding. Generally the first thing people mention when you say Hanson is the distance of the long run. I didn't find that an issue some people will add in an extra mile or two, I may have done that can't remember but if I did it was to fit in with someone I was running with rather than questioning the plan.

If you've any specific questions let me know and best of luck it's a great marathon.

Murph_D

If you are going to use Hanson, buy the book and read it - don’t rely on an excel version of the schedule, you’ll just be tempted to tweak it. You need the detail to understand the approach properly.

Unknownability

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120742998#Comment_120742998

Agreed, I had a eureka moment where everything just clicked and I perfectly understood the theory around the plan.

Hanson is active on YouTube where he posts videos and also on Twitter where he has answered some specific training questions for me.

MiketheMechanic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120741633#Comment_120741633

Thanks D. All very good points.

I suppose the reason I was doubting the Hal Higdon plan, is that it seems light on Marathon Pace miles, and I ended up tweaking it to add in more MP miles and miles in general over the past 2 years. That is telling me that maybe I've outgrown it.

I think I will get the Hanson book and read it, but ultimately save it for the next campaign - or possibly try Hanson for a Half Marathon first as an introduction.

I'm pretty good at sticking to a plan during the 18-week campaign. Right now, I think that the P&D 55 mile plan will give me the MP miles, speed and endurance I need to make a small incremental gain from Boston.

3.13 to 3.15 is probably a more accurate target.

I'll reply to some of the other comments with more details about fitness, times, negative splits etc.

MtM

MiketheMechanic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120742753#Comment_120742753

Thanks @Wottle and @skyblue46

@Murph_D made a good point about my marathon target band being far too wide at 3.10-3.15.

Nice round numbers, but I would say that 3.13-3.15 is a more accurate aspiration.

@skyblue46 - yes, I do have a pretty "good engine" 😀 I tend to speed up in races as I progress and generally hit my mile goal times on my paceband pretty much spot on. I generally do a custom paceband based on even effort (rather than even splits), that also shows the halfway splits, where to take water, gel and electrolytes, the major 10,20,30, 40km splits etc. The beer bit at the end is for motivation during the hard miles - LOL.

For London 2021, My halfway split was exactly 1.40.00 vs. 1.39.50 on the paceband.

I ran a negative split of 44 seconds for 3.19.16.

For DCM 2019 - 3:25:14 - My halfway split was 1.42.00

I ran a positive split of 74 seconds.

For DCM 2018 - 3:27:46 - My halfway split was 1.44.17

I ran a negative split of 48 seconds.

I think I've run negative splits in 8 of the 11 marathon's I've done.

I lost a bit of fitness to injury this time last year, and feel like I'm only recently getting back to the levels I reached in Spring 2022.

I'm also back approaching the weight I was at for London and Boston, which is a big help. 2.5 kg to go, but I'd expect it to drop off gradually over the coming weeks as the mileage increases.

During the 18 week Boston training campaign last Dec-April (and only a few months after the London campaign) I hit the following times in warm-up races.

Dungarvan 10 6 Feb 2022 66.02

Adare 10k 27 Feb 2022 - 39.32 (PB)

Mallow 10 20 March 2022 - 64.38 (PB)

13 days after Boston, I did the Great Limerick Run Half marathon in 89.21 (PB)

So, I'm hoping that based on this, and the direction of my current training, a 3.13-3.15 target is achievable in Chicago?

MtM

skyblue46

Aha... getting into the shape that you were in when you ran those times would change things alright...I'd be back to predicting 3:10 ;-)

chabsey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120739101#Comment_120739101

Same here, plan and marathon. How's it going for you so far? Early days I know but the first of your speed sessions has been done. Mine went ok but I missed about half of them by a few seconds. I'd be worried if it hadn't checked back at my last Hanson's attempt where I also missed the target range of the speed sessions by a few seconds and still went on to get exactly the time I was aiming for.

Murph_D

Don’t forget those Hanson speed sessions say 5-10k pace. Quite a lot of leeway there over 400-1000m reps

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120745319#Comment_120745319

Hey chabsey,

I actually skipped that first SOS session and ran an easy 8 miles instead.

Dunshaughlin was still too heavily present in the legs, plus I figured that was a good sub for it anyway.

Looking forward to this upcoming week, gonna see how a 3:05 target feels on Thursday's tempo.

Best of luck with it.

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120742799#Comment_120742799

You were who I meant in my first post 😊

Always get you guys mixed up.

MiketheMechanic

The P&D plan Thursday sessions are TOUGH! Big step up from the Hal Higdon advanced plan in terms of intensity and length of runs on the "hard" days !

MtM

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120785037#Comment_120785037

I've been following the P&D(18/70) marathon training plan for three weeks now, and I'm finding the Wednesday session particularly challenging after the Tuesday session involving strides and hill sprints. The plan also includes occasional intense workouts on other days. Tonight's workout is a 9-mile run with 4 miles at lactate threshold (LT) pace in the middle. However, I'm struggling to maintain the LT range during the first mile. It feels like a constant grind to stay within the desired pace.

Ive been told it's not uncommon to find some workouts challenging, especially during the initial weeks of a marathon training plan and its important to remember that training plans are designed to progressively build fitness and endurance over time. Some suggestions I've read to help with the tough sessions:

Pace yourself- When starting the LT portion of the workout, try to start at a pace that allows you to comfortably stay within the LT range. It's better to begin conservatively and gradually increase your effort as you progress through the workout.

Mental focus- During challenging workouts, it's essential to stay mentally engaged. Focus on form, breathing, and maintaining a positive mindset. Breaking the workout into smaller segments can also help you mentally tackle it. Instead of thinking about the entire workout, focus on one mile or interval at a time.

Recovery and rest: Ensure that the body is getting enough time to recover between workouts. Adequate rest and recovery are crucial for adapting to the training stimulus. Get enough sleep, eating well and relax when the chance comes

And improtantly training plans are not set in stone, and some adjustments may be necessary to accommodate current fitness level and abilities. Listening to your body and making modifications when needed can help ensure a successful training cycle.

MiketheMechanic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120785789#Comment_120785789

Great advice. About to head out for the Sunday long run. Will be trying to incorporate a few marathon paced miles today.

MtM

MiketheMechanic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120741633#Comment_120741633

Hi all.

I just wanted to close the loop on my request from June and give a little update.

I finally got around to uploading my Chicago Marathon 2023 trip report today - 4 weeks late!

you can read it here:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121327964/#Comment_121327964

TLDR - It went well! - a new PB of 3.11.41 , negative split of 95 seconds and a 7 minute 7 second improvement over Boston 2022.

In the end, I decided to use the Pfitzinger and Douglas (P&D) 18 week up to 55 mile plan.

I found that it was a bit of an adjustment in the first few weeks of the plan and quite a step up in terms of the midweek volume and intensity 

from the likes of Hal Higdon. I got there in the end though.

The Wednesday medium-long run was a game changer (for me) I think. 

I must say that I think I benefitted from having 2 rest days in the P&D plan, rather than 1 that I had on recent training blocks. 

I also think that changing from Hal Higdon to P&D gave my body the little "shake up" that it needed to get to the next level.

I'm thinking about Berlin next year. Hopefully I get a lottery place.

I may tweak the P&D 18/55 plan for my next marathon and introduce a slight mileage increase - a sort of Hybrid between 55 miles and 70 miles.

Hopefully my body can tolerate a gradual increase.

Thanks to everyone that replied here with all the brilliant advice and support - @Murph_D @skyblue46 @Wottle @Lazare @marathon2022 @Unknownability @Sandwell

Altius et Fortius

MtM

Lazare

Just read your race report Mike and it's top drawer.

Huge congrats man.