Learning in Automatic before official driving lessons using manual

Flinty997 · 13-06-2023 10:52AM

The OP question was answered long ago. Its bad idea.

Will a learner driver be confused and distracted by switching between them. I think the vast majority of new learner driver would.

Driving in an auto will be good experience for applying rules of the road etc, roadcraft. But is that experience it worth the above problem. I don't think so.

Driving a manual is muscle memory.

GaryKE. · 13-06-2023 11:21AM

@user1988 Any practice will be beneficial, but if you are just practicing in an auto and doing the test in a manual after say 12 lessons and possible a pretest or two, I will be surprised if they passed 1st time as they would not have enough practice with a manual.

You say it is only a small part of driving a manual, but I would say the opposite your clutch control and gear changing are one of the biggest aspects of driving a manual. If you have not built up enough skill with the clutch/gear change then on the day this may lead to a lot of small mistakes that can cause the driver to get flustered and cause even bigger issue.

If practicing in an auto then do the lessons and test in an auto it makes the most sense.

Flinty997 · 13-06-2023 11:35AM

I would say stick with the manual only until you do the test. Afterwards use the auto to build up experience.

Since even after passing the test, you still need as much experience as you can get.

creedp · 13-06-2023 12:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708523#Comment_120708523

The same happens when people look for advice on buying ICEs, hybrids and phevs. The thread immediately turns into a discussion on why they would be mad, stupid. insane even to consider buying anything other than an EV even if their budget would only get them into an early Leaf or at a push an Ioniq 28kwh.

I would say if a learner is trying to develop the expertise to pass a manual test, then practising in an auto between lessons might be confusing. Once you master the ability to drive a manual, then it becomes 2nd nature and no longer a distraction when driving so pass the test in a manual and then drive the auto.

My OH learned in a manual but hated it, stuck with it and passed the test. Now predominantly drives an EV and hates driving manual. Her biggest issue remains switching between the two requires her to almost relearn the gear changing process and she constantly cuts out the car until she gets familiar with the process again. Now she hates driving anyway so this problem might not be so pronounced for others. However I would still say stick with the one mode until you pass the test and then do what you like after.

Personally I think that if someone passes the manual test and then drives autos, the idea that at some point in the future they could hop into a manual hire car in a foreign country and simply blast off down the road is not realistic anyway, and could be argued borderline dangerous.

_Kaiser_ · 13-06-2023 01:27PM

I did my test in an auto and have never ran into an issue where I was "stuck" because of it - this was before autos were commonplace too but even then if you stuck to certain brands there was no issue (eg: Jap imports, VW etc). Funnily enough I don't see any reference to it on my license though.

The nice thing too was/is that when you DO need a loaner (eg: if leaving your own car in for a service/few days) you normally get something nice! I got an E320 for the day about 15 years ago because the regular loaner (a Fiesta) was a manual - although if you want to talk about controls.. I never got used to that pedal parking brake they had/have in those!

Agree also that when learning things like observation, spatial awareness, getting a "feel" for the car and different speeds and all the rest are far more important than worrying about/fighting with the gearbox or panicking if you stall it at the lights.

I haven't driven a manual since the mid-90s and would never go back at this stage.

DaveyDave · 13-06-2023 01:34PM

People aren't reading the post. They're asking if practicing in an auto before the lessons will help.

Practicing driving before doing lessons, regardless of auto or manual, will give them much needed time behind the wheel.

I spent several years cycling before doing my test which I attribute to being able to read the road and react to hazards properly, this was a huge benefit before getting behind the wheel of a car.

Once they start their lessons they can then work on clutch control and won't need to focus on doing several things at once.

There's already another thread for the silly auto Vs manual debate.

Flinty997 · 13-06-2023 01:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120709312#Comment_120709312

If your license has a mistake on it you should get it corrected.

Flinty997 · 13-06-2023 01:54PM

Most people take time to adjust to a different cars.

DrivingForward · 13-06-2023 02:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058300134/learning-in-automatic-before-official-driving-lessons-using-manual

Learning first in an auto will not make too much of a difference. There are plenty learners that have never sat in the driver’s seat before their first lesson and do just fine, however, their steering, observation, etc. can take a hit as everything is new to them. Get her out in the automatic, learning to look around, the effect of steering at different speeds, and aiming where to stop the car. Having this little bit of experience will help massively.

Esel · 13-06-2023 06:55PM

..

AyeGer · 15-06-2023 08:01AM

I’m driving 25 years now, all manual cars till about 5 years ago. I’m now on my 2nd auto. I will never go back to manual. Auto is definitely the future.

Most young drivers now will never need to drive a manual car. If I was a young person today I wouldn’t waste my time learning a manual.

galwaytt · 15-06-2023 09:53AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120695085#Comment_120695085

I disagree, and both my kids have been down this road in the last couple of years, here's my 0.02 on it:

If they are completely 'green' to driving, then they have to learn all about vehicle control using the gears plus traffic plus 'road sense' plus a myriad of other things. If they've never driven before, then they also have to comprehend practical things like speed perception and stopping, roundabouts etc. Throw all that, plus gears & clutch control can be overwhelming for many.

So, break it down. An auto will remove the clutch/gears operation and allow concentration on the most important thing: safety. They'll learn speed comprehension, traffic (and how close it can be), mirror use and navigation of (junctions) etc - without the pressure of clutch & gear use. The automatic will also allow them more easily drive at and abide by, speed limits. (becuase you're not "chasing the gears" as they call it).

With a bit of practice at that level, and developing a sense of those things to becoming 'automatic' (sic :) ), then clutch & gear training in a manual car will be less stressful, and can be added.

Mine started in autos for practice at home, did their EDT in manuals, so I think it was a smooth path to take.

djan · 15-06-2023 11:53AM

May not be an attractive option, but given the low trade in value of your A4, would you be willing to just run it into the ground until it falls apart?

Motorways are EV's biggest downfall as once you go around the 120km/h speeds, range really suffers, add to that wind and winter weather and you will just about make it with little left over for any further driving.

When doing electricity calculations, make sure to account for increased costs of daytime unit cost in order to benefit from cheaper night time charging.

Sam Russell · 15-06-2023 08:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120717049#Comment_120717049

Fair enough. That can be a valid approach, and works well for some learners. However, it might be better to do all training n the one car.

I would start teaching a novice in a level car park with the engine warmed up. Novice is sat in drivers seat and told to only use the clutch with their left leg- no brake or accelerator. It might help to adjust the wing mirrors so that the driver can see where the rear wheels touch the road.

Depress clutch and select first gear. Release hand brake. Gently ease the clutch up until the engine note changes, and hold it there. The car will begin to move forward (the engine will not stall unless the clutch was raised too high - too quickly).
As the car moves, wait a few seconds and then release the clutch altogether. The car will then move forward without problem.
Bring car to a halt by depressing the clutch and apply the hand brake (but you could use the foot brake, but best to just use the clutch at this time - only left leg is being exercised).
Repeat but this time select reverse to return the car back to its original starting position.

Now the car moved maybe 20 metres. Repeat this until the novice can do this without hesitation, and the muscles have learnt the bite point. The lesson is learnt when the novice can bring the clutch up with just a momentary pause at the bite point.

Next use this technique to do a three point turn using mirrors and steering wheel. Repeat until novice can do it properly, using mirrors and observation - but only the left leg. [Modern cars will not stall].

Next do the reverse around the corner.

If this is all completed before venturing out on the road, the gears are not a problem.

To verify gears are not a problem, practice changing gears on a quite road to train the muscles to know where the gears are.

While driving on a traffic free road at 50 km/hr (or whatever suits the car being used), get the novice to change gear for 4th to 3rd to 2nd and back again without changing speed and without looking at the gear stick or making the car jerk. To achieve this, the clutch and accelerator must be used in sync to get the revs matched so there is no jerky moment as the gear engages. A lot of experienced drivers would find this challenging.

I think there is a tendency for learners to go out in traffic without the basic skills of controlling the car at low speed, and they get flustered. What I am suggesting is maybe the first hour or two of lessons doing this.

However, you teach your novices any way you choose - I am sure they have learnt to drive well.

wotzgoingon · 15-06-2023 09:25PM

I taught myself to drive really quickly by reversing in and out the garden when I was young. It taught me how to use the clutch. Like slowly releasing and lightly pressing accelerator. Bought a car a couple of years later at 18 and it was some feeling driving home as I had never driven on a road. I wasn't even insured. I sorted that out later. My sister drove me to the car and I drove it home without ever having a lesson.

The point of all that bullshít is you should let her drive the manual car even if it's in and out of the garden. Though if you have a small driveway I wouldn't recommend that in case she panics and crashes the car into the house.

pawdee · 16-06-2023 11:55AM

I "learnt to drive" and got my first licence on an automatic in the US years ago. To say that the test was a joke is an understatement. When I moved to the UK I learned to drive a manual and, if I'm honest, I've never been comfortable with it. I just think it's a pain in the arse and unnecessary in this day and age. I can't believe they still make manual cars.

While I see the OPs point, I wouldn't recommend going down that route. I'd say if you're doing the test in a manual do all your lessons and practice in a manual. It's much easier to switch to auto than the other way around. A common mistake manual drivers make when switching to auto is to put their foot on the "clutch" (brake pedal) accidentally. Not nice. I was forever forgetting to put my foot on the clutch when stopping in traffic etc.

I drive a manual now but my next car will definitely be auto again. Having said all of that I can see the appeal in having a blast in a manual sports car on a nice windy road. If I had lots of money I'd probably buy a mint W124 Merc auto for my day to day driving and an Alfa Romeo Stradale 33 for the weekends (ask me again tomorrow and it'll be two different cars).

On a final note, whatever about small hatchbacks / economy cars with manual gearboxes, I could never get my head around people buying new luxury cars like BMW 5 series, Audi A6, Merc E Class etc in manual. You don't see it as much nowadays. Do they even make those with manual anymore? I have no clue.

Happy motoring!

Alanstrainor · 16-06-2023 12:41PM

The first car I drove was an automatic Polo, my mother had it (I later inherited it...). I started driving it a bit before getting lessons in a manual. In the end I didn't find much value in it. Once you add a manual transmission to the equation it takes a lot of focus and I felt I was back at square one. Whereas driving the auto Polo felt just like a gokart to me. But I took to driving quickly and had an interest, so perhaps for someone with no road experience and who is nervous a few drives in an auto would be beneficial.

I do still see value in learning with a manual transmission, but the need for it is falling fast. Even 10 years ago it would have seemed crazy to me to learn in an auto, but these days not so much. Cars are only going one way, and that's electric. And even if it's a hybrid of some kind almost all will be auto (there's a couple of exceptions).

moonage · 16-06-2023 08:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120719916#Comment_120719916

I'd disagree with one aspect of your approach. You say to just use the clutch to get the car moving.

I think learners should be taught to first give it some throttle and then get the biting point. It's true that lots of modern cars can move off without throttle but all cars are different. Some learners might pass in a diesel and then buy an older petrol car—they might end up stalling a lot and can't figure out what they're doing wrong.

Regarding the OP, I think learning with a parent in an auto before manual lessons would be helpful. The many skills and aspects of driving, other than clutch/gears, could be worked on. Once the manual lessons start, practicing in an auto wouldn't be advisable as switching between the two would be confusing.

Sam Russell · 16-06-2023 08:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120724204#Comment_120724204

The point about clutch only - no accelerator - is to teach the foot muscle to pause at the bite point. Once that is mastered, then include the accelerator. I would just leave out the accelerator until the novice can master just the clutch only approach because it works and easier to see progress. Obviously not all cars are in good condition and well tended and it may not work with those.

It is not to do this for more than the first few goes/lessons, just to learn the bite point. It would be more forgiving to allow the engine revs to be increased, so not so goo for learning.

Novices should start doing the low speed elements first when there is little to distract.

Driving a car is one of the most complex activities that most people try and master in their lives. Why do they try and run before they can walk.

Flinty997 · 16-06-2023 09:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120724204#Comment_120724204

It's the lack of torque that used to cause cars to stall. Used to be problem with high revving petrols. I expect most cars have more torque these days. Used to be switching between diesel and petrol was like night and day.

galwaytt · 18-06-2023 10:45PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120724268#Comment_120724268

the problem with relying on that is some modern diesels, once in gear and you let up the clutch, they automatically increase rpm........anti-stall they calll it. Have seen it in a Renault for example.

Flinty997 · 18-06-2023 10:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120732131#Comment_120732131

Anti-stall new one on me.

galwaytt · 19-06-2023 08:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120719916#Comment_120719916

Nothing wrong with any of that, but getting to a level of proficiency in a busy traffic environment is the challenge. This is why breaking those two into separate 'learnings' is not a bad idea, particuarly for nervous drivers.

Sam Russell · 19-06-2023 08:58AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120732829#Comment_120732829

I actually think it is very poor to take a novice into traffic without having mastered the most basic skill in driving - managing the gears, clutch, brake, and accelerator. When those are mastered, the slow speed steering is next, hence the reverse around the corner and three point turn. At slow speed, the novice needs to be aware that the rear wheels do not steer, and it is the positioning of those that is important because the front wheel can be realigned more easily. At traffic speed, the rear wheels follow the front ones, but not at slow speed when trying to park.

Like riding a bike, once mastered, it remains always learnt.

Sam Russell · 19-06-2023 08:59AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120732131#Comment_120732131

That is why it can be done using only the clutch. The modern car handles the accelerator for you if you ignore it.

freshpopcorn · 19-06-2023 01:26PM

Maybe I'm crazy but don't most instructors in the first lesson or so just bring you to a quiet area and let you get use to clutch control/stopping/starting smoothly/etc. Especially in your own car.

Your told go home and do similar.

Then you get taken out on the open road when your good enough. Ofcourse you might stall bit that's just part of it.

Howeve4 in a dual control things are probably different.

galwaytt · 19-06-2023 01:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120732906#Comment_120732906

by removing the need to manage gears & clutch you make the introduction easier, safer.

Steering inputs, braking performance, spatial & speed awareness, ancillary controls (e.g. indicators) are the priority.

Sam Russell · 19-06-2023 02:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120734292#Comment_120734292

Why not teach the gears the way I describe in a safe, secure environment away from traffic. It has the advantage of covering three point turn and reverse around the corner, and this should build confidence.

Low speed motoring is a lot less stressful than driving out in traffic.