A new central Munster airport

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676719#Comment_120676719

Oh I agree with you on the rail issues around the city & county.

The Motorway has really been an unfortunate hostage for far too long. If there is to be a west coast rod corridor it is really is a no brainer to open Cork all the way through to Sligo and beyond.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676613#Comment_120676613

There is a reason we can't (won't) do it like your New York example and its simply that Dublin people can't handle the "insult" of being asked to travel to their airport the way the rest of the country has to.

StevenToast

Bertie bowl stuff

bk

“I'm a bit biased, but Shannon is massively under utilised”

The problem with Shannon though is that the demand just isn’t there, its catchment area is relatively poor. Shannon has every advantage, very long runway, zero debt, independent, transatlantic flights, US pre clearance, yet it carries 1 million per year less then Cork!

Little Cork airport, which is hobbled in every way possible, short runway, no transatlantic traffic, no us pre-clearance, big debt and isn’t independent and yet it carries 1 million more people per year then Shannon!

The reason why Cork does better because it has in reality a much larger catchment area then Shannon, short distance from Cork city and it surroundings make it quick and easy to get too from Ireland’s second biggest city. Give Cork the same advantages as Shannon it would grow WAY larger then Shannon quickly.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying take anything from Shannon, but I honestly can’t see what else you could do to make Shannon any more attractive, it already has pretty much every advantage possible. No, I’m just saying if you want to balance out Dublin, then you will get more bang for your buck by giving some of the same advantages Shannon has to Cork.

If you could just add a couple of transatlantic and Middle Eastern destinations to Cork, it would greatly reduce the number of Corkonians who head to Dublin Airport.

.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120674270#Comment_120674270

Errr….. but no it isn’t! It is nowhere near capacity, I’ve no idea where people get this nonsense from.

They have just recently opened the second runway at Dublin Airport, plenty of capacity.

There are plans for a third terminal, with intermediate plans to increase the capacity of the existing two terminals to 40 million people per year (from 32 at the moment).

There is plenty of space around Dublin Airport to continue to expand, a big land bank (controversially) came up for sale between the two runways just this week.

Sure, there are some bottlenecks at Dublin Airport, with parking, etc. and they definitely need Metrolink to help it grow, but it is VERY afar from capacity!

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677345#Comment_120677345

They "get this nonsense" from a report that it is already past growth projections and that something will have to be done in the next 10/15 years.

That's why there has been so much talk recently about upgrading either Dublin/Shannon/Cork or building a midlands airport.

It is not very far from capacity.

There are not plans for a 3rd terminal.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120674046#Comment_120674046

Shannon used to be a stopover too, aka, dragging a load of people into an airport you didn’t wish to be at and into a terminal to go shopping and eating whilst landing fees, handling charges, parking charges, extra fuel, extra wear and tear on wheels / landing gear, engines etc were all charged to the airline who passed those charges on to their clients… landing gear and engines have lifecycles… doesn’t matter what nick they are in…

So Shannon really can’t complain, they had the biggest most disingenuous mafia style scam going in any civilised democracy, almost gangsteresque for decades, a gun to the head job on passengers traveling from other regions of the country, so they could make a few bob.

be like if you were driving to Belfast from Dublin and you had to use the east link bridge… pure gangsterville…

ultimately these businesses need to be at the behest of their customers needs, not the other way around.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677416#Comment_120677416

This is deranged.

Sam Russell

The benefit of SNN having the pre-clearance is to allow European flights to go to SNN for passengers to fly onward to USA airports that are mostly domestic. This is a huge advantage that is not being exploited.

However, it has to be grown by having plenty of USA flights, and the attracting European connections. A chicken and egg problem.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677431#Comment_120677431

No it isn’t, it is completely accurate, the Shannon stopover was a complete scam, it was one of the worst examples of parish pump politics.

”They "get this nonsense" from a report that it is already past growth projections and that something will have to be done in the next 10/15 years.”

LMAO, so you have now gone from Dublin Airport is at capacity, too it might be in the next 10/15 years!

Dublin airport growing faster than projections is a good thing, but it certainly isn’t any indication that it is at capacity, far from it!

DAA aren’t currently planning to build terminal 3, because they believe they can increase the capacity of the existing terminals from 32 million to 40 million people per year, only after that will they look to build Terminal 3, which there is plenty of space for at Dublin Airport.

Dublin is nowhere near capacity, to give you an idea, Heathrow airport is also a two runway airport and it carries 62 million passengers per year, versus Dublins current 32. Plenty of growth space there.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120674046#Comment_120674046

Shannon was never a hub. There was a ridiculous enforced stopover that airlines were entirely free to keep doing after the requirement to do so was dropped by the Government - not the DAA.

Only one airline retained it, briefly - Air Transat. Everyone else stopped - because Shannon was never the traffic generator

Shannon have had the guts of a decade independent now and have achieved nothing. The ability to keep blaming Dublin for everything is running out.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677618#Comment_120677618

I do apologize if I said "at capacity" I was wrong there.

Runways are not the only thing that counts for capacity. It will require lots of money to keep increasing Dublin's capacity and the whole conversation here is could it be better spent elsewhere.

Yes of course Dublin can be increased but should it be.

bk

“Yes of course Dublin can be increased but should it be.”

Of course it should, if the demand is there from both passengers and airlines.

There is absolutely nothing stopping both passengers and airlines from using Shannon, yet they both vote with their wallet and use Dublin.

Keep in mind, that the taxpayer doesn’t pay for any of the expansions at Dublin Airport, the costs are completely covered by the DAA themselves by fees paid by the airlines. In fact Shannon has actually cost the taxpayer, Dublin doesn’t. So there really isn’t argument if many should be spent elsewhere. In the end it will be up to the DAA and indirectly the airlines/passengers if investment continues in Dublin or not.

We are actually very lucky with Dublin Airport, it is nice and close to the city, but still has loads of land around it for continued growth in future, unlike say Heathrow. And Metrolink will absolutely transform the connectivity to it.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677706#Comment_120677706

"There is absolutely nothing stopping both passengers and airlines from using Shannon"

Well fair enough I agree about airlines but passengers don't really get a choice.

I also agree about Metrolink because my biggest issue with booking a holiday from Dublin is the bus part. No problem with the train to Dublin but hate that bus in/out.

Expand Shannon, as someone said put in rail, even light rail, link up with Galway, express bus links far and wide, turn it into a second hub. Maybe some commuter feed from Donegal to link in too.

Light rail Colbert Station via city centre, a couple of key stops near hotels north side, Cratloe, Bunratty, Shannon Town, Shannon Airport.

Alternatively an express hovercraft service would fit the bill, with included minibus link to Colbert station. The hovercraft could swiftly traverse the estuary mud flats and provide a smooth commute. In strong winds an alternative bus could be provided.

Chris_5339762

Dublin airport is in the right place for Dublin and for "stealing" passengers from the M1 corridor. Its on the wrong side of Dublin to steal passengers from Cork or Limerick or Galway or Waterford directions, due to M50 traffic and the need to do complicated changes in Dublin to get to it on anything other than a bus.

Shannon may take off a little if the M20 gets built as it could steal traffic from Cork.

As it stands I for one would rather eat my own luggage then drive to Dublin for a flight. All buses to Dublin airport leave from the middle of Cork, not anywhere where I can put my car while I holiday. Shannon is just stressful with the N20 or with the M8/Hospital route.

With Cork I can leave the house 1h45m before the flight and watch it land before walking into the terminal. Aside from a slight lack of the routes and the fact that it only has a Cat2 runway for jets (and the resultant problems with fog then) its my favourite airport. When they get the new CT scanners in it'll be even better.

Shauna677

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672357#Comment_120672357

What good is that to people travelling up from cork kerry etc, having to spend a night in a hotel in Dublin too and the crazy prices they charging.

bk

“Dublin airport is in the right place for Dublin and for "stealing" passengers from the M1 corridor. Its on the wrong side of Dublin to steal passengers from Cork or Limerick or Galway or Waterford directions, due to M50 traffic and the need to do complicated changes in Dublin to get to it on anything other than a bus.”

It might be on the “wrong side”, but large numbers of people travel from Cork, Limerick and Galway to use Dublin Airport. I’m a Corkonian, lots of family and friends use Dublin Airport. All the intercity coach services (Aircoach, GoBus, Citylink, etc.) feeding into Dublin Airport.

I can agree though, there is a lot you can do to make Cork more attractive, extend the runway, potential for a route to JFK and Middle East and you could attract a lot of Corkonians who are currently heading to Dublin.

“All buses to Dublin airport leave from the middle of Cork, not anywhere where I can put my car while I holiday. “

FYI, the buses leave from near Kent station, you can park at Kent station, it costs money, but a damn sight cheaper then Dublin Airport parking.

“Expand Shannon, as someone said put in rail, even light rail, link up with Galway, express bus links far and wide, turn it into a second hub.”

Sure expand rail to it, but realistically it won’t make much difference, maybe an extra 50 to 100k passengers per year (if that). It already has various BE routes serving it, so it is already served by public transport. Honestly I don’t see many people saying they won’t use Shannon because they can only take a coach to it, but would if it had a train.

Express buses, nothing stopping any of the bus and coach companies from requesting a license to operate to Shannon. No one stopping them, they don’t because the demand just isn’t there.

“but passengers don't really get a choice.”

I get what you mean, not on an individual basis, but they do indirectly. Airlines don’t just open up random air routes, they study the market, how many potential customers, the airport catchment area and then they do surveys of potential customers to see how much interest there is.

If they find that people in the catchment aren’t willing to pay a premium to fly out of Shannon and instead will make the trip to Dublin, then the customers are making a choice.

marno21

Genuinely don't see the argument for a rail link to Shannon Airport. It makes no commerical sense.

The buses from Limerick take 35 minutes on a lightly trafficked motorway. The rail service from Colbert to Sixmilebridge takes 20 mins or so so a rail link would take near on 30 minutes. All that investment for 5 minutes saved?

And from the other side, buses from Galway to Shannon would be much, much quicker using the motorway than any rail service due to the slow journey times on the line north of Ennis.

The Limerick-Athenry rail line is also single track, and flights into Shannon are sporadic and infrequent.

The train service also runs 7am-9:30pm at present which would require adjustment to suit early transatlanic arrivals and late night Ryanair flights. There were 5 flights arriving after this last night for example upto 12am.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678339#Comment_120678339

On that last bit connectivity has nothing got to do with catchment area and people are already driving or travelling to Dublin from outside the catchment area.

bk

“On that last bit connectivity has nothing got to do with catchment area and people are already driving or travelling to Dublin from outside the catchment area.”

I’m not sure what you are saying here?

An airport will have a natural catchment area, of course people will travel outside it to a further Airport if if has cheaper flights or just has routes not offered by a closer airport.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676732#Comment_120676732

That’s the most petulant, childish thing I’ve read on boards in a long time! That’s a reason that most airports are built close to major cities and not on the opposite side of the country - you build infrastructure where people are. This isn’t a Dublin thing, it’s a global thing. The NY airports are all close to the metro NY area, they’re not hundreds of miles away.

brianc89

I'd like to throw something in here regarding the regional airports.

A family member recently got married in Italy. Our very large extended family all went out. NONE of them knew you could fly from Knock direct to Milan. They were all delighted to avoid Dublin and couldn't believe Italy was so accessible from Knock.

My point is that - demand could be far higher in our regional airports if flight options were offered and advertised better. Everyone just assumes you have to fly from Dublin.

JohnnyChimpo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120681150#Comment_120681150

Is it really asking that much that people just go on to skyscanner or google flights or one of the many other flight finders, click "Ireland (Any)" to "Milan", and then look at the results. My 75 year old mum can manage this just fine

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120681308#Comment_120681308

This isn't really the point I'm making. Why would someone use "Ireland All" if they've already made the incorrect assumption that Dublin is the only option.

Based on my experience, which was about 50 people, Knock airport is not widely seen as a viable option for EU travel. 50 people is a decent dataset.

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678039#Comment_120678039

There are 24 hour buses from all over the country to the airport. No one has to spend a night in the airport for this reason anymore.

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120681150#Comment_120681150

A lot of these flights are seasonal though.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120682142#Comment_120682142

There are all year round flights to Milan, Malaga and Lanzarote, as well as the UK of course. I bet the vast majority of people don't know this and would assume Dublin is the only option.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678339#Comment_120678339

Your heart is in the right place here but I feel you're glossing over a few details at the same time.

Travelling to Dublin airport is a horrendous experience from Cork. Almost everyone travelling more than a couple of flights a year will tell you that they would rather pay significantly more per flight than use Dublin airport. Yes, lots of my family and friends use Dublin Airport too and they almost universally hate the experience. I'm not saying "expand Shannon" or "expand Cork" or anything, I'm just saying that the three hour bus journey, followed by another journey to the bus along with the long exposed uncomfortable waits at both ends is absolutely not competing with driving yourself to Dublin and paying for Dublin Airport parking. Dublin is in no way convenient or easy from Cork. And it shouldn't be able to compete with Cork airport realistically.

Cork Airport is fantastic. Obviously the public transport connectivity between the city and the airport should be an awful lot better. That's the story of the city in general: public transport in Cork is quite poor (but improving). And the historic lack of competition in Cork airport was a big problem. Aer Lingus completely took the p1ss with running down flight schedules and upping prices. It's only since the IAG merger that Lufthansa/Air France/KLM are suddenly coming in and it's been a massive breath of fresh air for Cork airport IMO.

Public transport to and from Dublin airport could be an awful lot better too of course. As could the whole Dublin Airport experience. Few people I know complain about Heathrow, Schiphol, Frankfurt Main or other big airports, but almost everyone complains about Dublin. In general it is more difficult and slow and expensive than it ought to be. This relates to things like car parking, bus facilities, the lack of rail connectivity, security queues, the border patrol queues etc.

Anyway back on topic, I'm just saying that the number 1 reason I know that anyone travels from Cork to fly out of Dublin is lack of choice rather than cost and convenience. Most people I know are willing to pay a significant premium to travel from the local airport. Maybe that's just anecdotal and not representative of the majority though.

hans aus dtschl

Another thing: a lot of people seem to think that the N/M20 would see Shannon stealing passengers from Cork, or Cork stealing passengers from Shannon. I actually think the N/M20 would see both airports stealing more passengers from Dublin, personally.

Based in Cork, I already consider Shannon as my natural next-preference for flights rather than Dublin, but a lot of people I know don't even think to check Shannon for flights, partly because the N20 is very unpredictable at the moment. I think if Shannon was within 90 mins of the city, it would naturally start to draw in more Cork passengers than it currently does. Budapest, Malta, Marseille, NY, Chicago for a weekend trip for instance. Those people are not going to form the backbone of any route's passengers, but I don't see why the road upgrade wouldn't actually improve the lot of both airports.