A new central Munster airport

toggie · 01-06-2023 11:12pm #1

Would a new airport in Munster help alleviate pressure and provide a reasonable alternative for a bulk of the population around Munster.

Dublin airport with 30 million plus passengers per year, and barely 5 million with Shannon, Cork and Kerry between them.

Location wise a location to the northwest of Mallow makes sense in my head. Connected to rail lines, the N72, future M20, between Limerick City and Cork City.

To achieve this, the eventual closer and the winding down of Cork Airport, Shannon and Kerry airports respectively.

I feel the 3 airports don't serve Munster well, splitting so many passenger numbers across the province.

In the west, Galway Airport and Sligo airport services were closed and operations solely concentrated at Ireland West Airport Knock, and it provides are reasonable service across UK and European summer destinations.

Thoughts?

bk · 02-06-2023 10:49am

Christ no, we already have too many airports!

They just need to extend the runway of Cork airport and separate it from the DAA and make it debt free like they did for Shannon and it would very quickly grow and develop.

Part of the problem with your idea is that they have already invested a lot into both Shannon and Cork Airports, new terminals, relayed runways, etc. So you’d lose all that investment if you closed them. And then there is the local parish pump politics, would never happen.

breezy1985 · 02-06-2023 10:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058298853/a-new-central-munster-airport

Terrible idea and an absolute waste of money when we already have 2 decent airports in the area. Shannon already has a large runway which isn't at capacity so can increase flights without any need for new infrastructure.

The big issue with Dublin is it's a massive hub for connections so you need to increase Cork and Shannon's ability to provide this.

callaway92 · 02-06-2023 11:14am

EDIT: Misread

you're suggesting closing Shannon/Cork etc.

My guess is this would actually lead to less flights in/out.

So no.

Strumms · 02-06-2023 11:30am

Cork airport is tiny.

A really short runway, a serious lack of parking for aircraft….

No point in extending the runway to facilitate larger aircraft if you’ve no ability to park said aircraft…

A new airport ? Might be better as Dublin is around capacity.

or put a rail link into Shannon.

02-06-2023 11:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058298853/a-new-central-munster-airport

Great idea OP - and while we are at it - we should adopt Federalism here in Ireland.

Munster could look after it's own affairs with it's own representatives and provincial capital.

Same with the other provinces.

This federal idea would greatly assist the Unification of Ireland with the existing 6 county statelet joining back with it's 3 lost counties and become Ulster.

Akrasia · 02-06-2023 11:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669614#Comment_120669614

There absolutely should be a rail link to Shannon. It's only a few miles of rail to link up with the Ennis Limerick line. A service every 20 minutes with a stop near the free zone would be huge for Limerick, Shannon and Ennis

bk · 02-06-2023 2:56pm

“No point in extending the runway to facilitate larger aircraft if you’ve no ability to park said aircraft…”

You would of course also increase other facilities as the airport grew, just like with any airport. CAA has had many plans for such increases.

ArcadiaJunction · 03-06-2023 12:46am

Just build a 3rd terminal in Dublin with at least one rail link. Problem solved.

Sam Russell · 03-06-2023 2:00pm

Build a long runway in Muster to join Cork to Limerick, and call it the M20. Now that is an idea - because local opposition to a new runway would be less than the opposition to a new motorway. It could be headlined as an extension of the Cork runway - nobody ever reads beyond the headline.

While we are at it, double track the Limerick to Limerick Junction line and introduce fast Cork-Limerick trains. Extend the line to Shannon, and have direct Cork to Shannon trains.

More connectivity means more traffic, and more competition.

Clareman · 03-06-2023 2:09pm

I'm a bit biased, but Shannon is massively under utilised, before anything else is done infrastructure wise more flights should be moved to Shannon in my opinion, friends of mine travelled from Dublin last year, they were longer getting from the car park to security than they were getting from Ennis to the car park. It's a motorway from Dublin and Galway to Shannon, you'll get from the Red Cow to Shannon in about 2 hours, instead of looking for massive investment just use what we have first.

Sam Russell · 03-06-2023 2:17pm

If it is necessary, according to the DAA, to get to the (Dublin) airport two hours early for a short haul flight, and three hours for a long haul flight, then surely getting to Shannon makes sense as it takes only a few minutes to get through security there.

Dublin to Ennis takes 2 and a half hours using either the M6/M18 or the M7/M18. Now that assumes one is leaving from Dublin city centre.

Flights need moving from Dublin to Shannon.

Edit: M18 meant instead of M16 typo

banie01 · 03-06-2023 2:52pm

The triumvirate of DUB, SNN & ORK must mean that at least 1 of those airports is very easily within 2hrs drive of at least 85% or so of the population? With SNN probably 2nd to DUB in terms of that reach. Taking in the N20/M20, M7, M18, N17, N21 and other road coverage would IMO that SNN is accessible in that 2hr window to far more people than ORK?

I'm saying that as a best guess on my part, not looked at road user data. But Cork City is 70minutes from SNN, Galway 50mins or so and then take into account the populations served by the roads above and my initial take would be that in addition to the longer runway and larger apron space at SNN to accommodate any expansion,that it also has a larger pool in the 2h4 drive range.

It also has the easiest route to link into rail service and already has US pre-clearance and acres of parking.

Surely all good things.

Like some of the others here, I believe that we have too many airports too and that rather than a 3rd for Munster? That we'd take an all island view and look towards what we can do to bring all of the N.E within the 2hr drive to an airport. If that means contributing to motorway building and Airport expansion in NI? Let's do it 🤷‍♀️

breezy1985 · 03-06-2023 3:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669614#Comment_120669614

The rail link to Shannon is something that waster councillors and backbenchers throw out round election time but there is no hope of it happening and it's actually not really that much a game changer.

A more frequent direct bus from Limerick and Ennis would be a start and could be done almost instantly if flights to Shannon grew.

But as I was saying earlier the Irish market is pretty small and the real way to ease pressure on Dublin is to make Shannon a better transatlantic connector. You can go to fek all of the big European cities from Shannon. It's just UK, USA the Costas for the Irish and Poland and Lithuania for the immigrant communities in the area.

Sam Russell · 03-06-2023 4:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120673502#Comment_120673502

Shannon used to be a hub, until DAA ate their lunch.

snotboogie · 03-06-2023 5:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120673451#Comment_120673451

The regional airports live and die on their immediate catchment area. It’s very hard to convince someone to drive 90-120 minutes to Shannon or Cork when you can be in Dublin and all of its routes, options and low prices in 2-3 hours.

Besides this, Cork airport is doing well. It’s projected to have 2.7 million pax this year, its highest number of international pax ever and 5 million pax by the end of the decade.

breezy1985 · 03-06-2023 5:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120674214#Comment_120674214

So what is your solution when Dublin is at capacity ?

It's already struggling.

banie01 · 03-06-2023 5:48pm

I know it's a quick and dirty guesstimate to drop 200km radius on a map and make that your 2hr travel to the airport window.

So I'll acknowledge that the numbers are dirty and the Dublin catchment in particular is pulling a little bit of GB, but the numbers that SNN and DUB have in that 2hr window are far above Cork and if a developed western corridor is still the plan to balance our Dublin centricity?

Surely enhancing SNN is the prime option?

The arbitrary 200km circle and population within it. SNN 4.23million, ORK 2.27million and both of course dwarfed by DUB with it's 6.2million Catchment.

Sam Russell · 03-06-2023 9:20pm

Dublin is building itself as a hub for European lesser airports to USA airports to benefit from pre-clearance to USA airports - particularly those USA that are purely domestic.

SNN should be able to do the same. For example - Manchester to SNN to USA.

Larbre34 · 03-06-2023 9:37pm

Shannon Airport is just 4km as the crow flies from a railway line and yet it doesn't meet it.

Cork Airport could quiet easily stand a light rail line to connect it to the city and the heavy rail network at Kent Station and yet it doesn't have one.

Before we start looking at sledgehammer solutions to a problem that doesn't exist, then let's, along with Dublin's connectivity deficit, maximise the effectiveness of the feckin airports we already have too many of.

Perks · 03-06-2023 9:50pm

Close Shannon and give Limerick City an airport and you might be onto something.

Never will forget the time Dublin airport closed with snow so got diverted to Shannnon to only be drove back to Dublin aiport in a bus.

The main airport should have a clean as you go snow plan in place not a let it build up and up and up and then shut it all down.

Planning is not our strong suit.

NO it would not help.

L1011 · 03-06-2023 9:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675098#Comment_120675098

No airport has a let it build up plan - there are cases when the snow is too much to be cleared easily regardless of what you do. And yes, it does happen in countries with more snow than here.

breezy1985 · 04-06-2023 1:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675070#Comment_120675070

The 51 bus is already good enough as a route but it needs more frequency at least on the Limerick to Ennis leg.

More flights to Shannon should be done regardless of some way off in the future train. Better to upgrade now which is possible with what is available than to wait on something like a train link.

snotboogie · 04-06-2023 11:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120674320#Comment_120674320

The 200km circle for Shannon includes Dublin lol. Who is going to drive 2.5 hours from Dublin to Shannon to get a more expensive flight? The 200km circle for Dublin includes most of Wales 🙃

breezy1985 · 04-06-2023 1:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676005#Comment_120676005

The idea of expanding the airport could mean it will have flights not serviced by Dublin or flights on different days to Dublin.

Or maybe you go to Shannon because Dublin is an absolute disaster.

Podge_irl · 04-06-2023 2:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120673375#Comment_120673375

Flights need moving from Dublin to Shannon.

The airlines don't agree.

banie01 · 04-06-2023 2:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676005#Comment_120676005

Because each airport would service substantially different routes and hubs. And yes it does include part of Wales, as was actually stated in my post. It's a quick and dirty example to outline the populations served by each airport.

If you carry through on a little consequential thinking for that Dublin population estimate as a result of your wonderfully astute observation? It would actually increase the viability of SNN & ORK as alternatives as Dublin's population on the basis of the quick estimate on the basis of the map,would drop by 1mln+

banie01 · 04-06-2023 2:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675533#Comment_120675533

The bus link is decent. I agree with utilizing what we have on that front before we proceed with infrastructure dreams. That said, the Ryder cup in 2027was surely the ideal event for SNN and as impetus of both the Cork-Limerick Motorway and expanding SNN link via rail and urban light rail in Limerick. The plans for both are well in hand now but likely too late for either to be in use in time for that marquee event.

snotboogie · 04-06-2023 3:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676516#Comment_120676516

It’s nonsense though, can you name any country in the world that reverse engineers their airports to share flights between cities? Every country chases scale for the economies that come with it. It would be madness to try and shrink Dublin airport.

banie01 · 04-06-2023 3:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676585#Comment_120676585

Where have I mentioned shrinking Dublin? The discussion is on alternatives to it. The reduction in numbers you were eager to highlight(despite its being addressed in the post) doesn't make a case for shrinking Dublin nor did I claim it did. I said it makes the case for SNN and ORK as alternatives stronger.

While the Dublin catchment drops, neither SNN or ORK do.

And again,it's not about flying the same routes. It is about an alternative airport in the MW or South offering alternative destination and connections to onward hubs. You seem to have difficulty in grasping that? An example that might help is New York. It is serviced by 3 international Airports, LGA, JFK and Newark. All of which offer different routes and onward hub connections. There is no reason that the Irish triumvirate can't do the same. It spreads passenger load without undue inconvenience and creates far more choice and options for the traveller.

breezy1985 · 04-06-2023 3:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676531#Comment_120676531

Limerick has huge problems with lack of commuter trains on lines that already exist.

We are now relaying Foynes which runs through Adare on an existing line with no plan for passenger services.

Shannon would be a brand new route. It's just not going to happen sadly.

The Cork to Limerick motorway is a no-brainer and up a massive failing of 25 years worth of governments.

A new central Munster airport

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