95 year old woman with dementia critical after being tazered by Australian police

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120625798#Comment_120625798

Mmm. No reason to think that the police are less likely to hurt her when disarming her than the residential home staff were. After all, dealing with the demented and distressed is a daily issue for care home staff; they'd have had both more training and more experience in this area than the police would.

I don't know why the police were called. But it's very unlikely to have been because anybody thought that doing so would be more likely to lead to a de-escalation of the situation than if care home workers dealt with it.

As Mellor points out, the staff didn't call "armed police"; they just called the police. But the police arrive with guns, tasers and batons; they are all standard equipment for police officers, and they come with a culture in which it's appropriate to use those in order to maintain control of a situation. And whoever called the police took the view that what this situation called for was something only the police could bring.

So, yeah, bringing in the police increased the chances of a violent outcome here, and whoever called the police almost certainly understood that. My guess would be that their judgment was the violence was likely to ensue anyway; the patient was in a state where going to hurt herself, or hurt others, or both, and this couldn't be de-escalated by non-violent means.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120625806#Comment_120625806

I don't think the police are less likely to injure her. The laws of physics don't change, the 95 year old is just as frail, etc. But different occupations have different levels of freedom in the same situation. Assuming that the care workers didn't both to do anything, and flicked it to the cops is silly. As you said, they deal with this everyday. And as I said, I'm sure the staff tried to resolved themselves but couldn't.

The cops are not going to de-escalated, calling the cops is escalation in itself. That's kinda the point, sometimes situations require escalation. Without information to the contrary, I'd assume that the professionals who are trained to deal with this situations, and deal with it everyday were forced to make the call to escalate here.

 My guess would be that their judgment was the violence was likely to ensue anyway; the patient was in a state where going to hurt herself, or hurt others, or both, and this couldn't be de-escalated by non-violent means.

Exactly this. When a violent outcome, especially one involving a knife, was likely. That situations is better to be handled by people wearing stab vests and the like. Of course, that's doesn't mean that firing a taser was the best course of actions for the police once involved.

Peregrinus

The care home, assuming it's run with even a minimal degree of competence, will have a policy in place for dealing with situations that include "demented aggressive patient with a knife".

The policy almost certainly does not start with "call the police". It start with "don't get into this situation in the first place", and establishes practices and protocols to prevent patients wandering, to ensure that potentially dangerous equipment like knifes are not accessible, etc. It then moves on to what to do if, despite these precautions, you do find yourself in this situation. And, even then, the next step is not "call the police"; that's be the last step of a large number of steps.

Well before "call the police' will come "call senior staff". This incident happened at night when presumably, there was only a skeleton staff of mostly fairly junior people in attendance. The policy will almost certainly have specified that they were to call managerial staff and/or appropriate specialist staff. We'll have to wait for the enquiry, but I would be very surprised if this was not the protocol.

There absolutely are techniques used to manage these situations that do not involve tasers. They involve talk; they involve music; they involve moving to or if necessary creating a "safe space" (i.e. a space that the resident will find safe), etc. Care staff, particularly senior care staff, will be familiar with them.

But even if you get to the end of all the available steps and you call the police, it's still not the case that tasering looks like an appropriate technique. Even if you have to use force, there are less drastic options available — options which will almost certainly be successful when deployed against a slow-moving 95-year old 45-kg woman on a zimmer frame. Tasers are, by the manufacturers' own statement, not non-lethal; they are "less lethal", designed to minimise the risk of a fatal outcome. There are groups for whom tasers present an elevated risk of death or serious injury; they include the elderly, the underweight and those with existing medical problems. This woman ticked all three of those boxes.

So, yeah, I suspect there was a chain of poor practice and/or bad decisions here that led up to this outcome, and the police are not responsible for most of them. But they are responsible for the decision to taser and, barring some bizarrely unusual facts, that's going to be a very difficult decision to justify.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120619360#Comment_120619360

So to save herself from herself it is OK to taser her?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120625733#Comment_120625733

I've experienced the reality of an aggressive dementia patient. I've never felt the need to cause them life threatening injuries.

Boggles

Her dementia was in the very early stages.

Anyway, end of life care has begun, well done that hero cop.

The streets are a lot safer now.

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120625963#Comment_120625963

Did they threaten you with a knife?

Boggles

NSW Police Commissioner refusing to watch the video, says she doesn't need to.

Wow.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626070#Comment_120626070

As I understand it, the NSW Police Commissioner has heard the footage but not seen it.

Is it not being investigated by an independent review team so the line above isn't as sensational as you're making it out to be?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626090#Comment_120626090

That isn't her excuse for not watching it.

Also there is nothing precluding her from watching it, she is the top cop, if there was she wouldn't be listening to it and getting a run down from investigators on their view of it.

Apparently she doesn't want to watch it because it would prejudice her view of it, listening to the audio and getting someone else's opinion is fine though.

Bullshít.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120625877#Comment_120625877

I assuming that calling the police was not the first thing, or the second thing. But we don't know the exact sequence of events yet. Maybe staff broke protocol, maybe they didn't. We don't have the details. We do know that police, outside of extreme circumstances, did break police protocol. Taser are not dished out lightly.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626070#Comment_120626070

It was a silly thing to say to the media. But she's not wrong. She doesn't need to watch what may amount to video of somebody dying. She should have no part in the investigation into the incident. It should be an independent investigation.

Personally, I'd say the only reason she should watch it is to know how badly her force screwed this up and prepare and act accordingly.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626160#Comment_120626160

 But she's not wrong. She doesn't need to watch what may amount to video of somebody dying

Of course she does, it's part of her literal job.

Also she never said isn't going to watch it.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120625877#Comment_120625877

With respect, you are assuming too high a level of competence on the care home. They often aren't that competent. I am regularly in care homes and I often have to examine their policies, training records etc. Many of the care homes I go into have staff that have done no dementia training or no training on how to deal with violent or aggressive residents. They are supposed to do it, but it doesn't always happen as training isn't always available. Secondly, I've never ever seen a policy in place that deals with a demented aggressive patient with a knife. They'll have care plans for individual residents and they'll have a violence and aggression risk assessment and a V&A policy etc., but they won't be that detailed. I know the things I've said above are here in Ireland but it's possible Australia isn't much different.

I have also seen Gardai called to a nursing home because of an out of control resident several times. Thankfully it never resulted in the Gardai having to get aggressive/use force.

While I'd like to give the cops the benefit of the doubt, I'm struggling with a reason for why they'd need to use a tazer. I suppose if there was an imminent risk of the cop or someone else getting stabbed, then maybe it's justified but it'll be a tough sell.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626174#Comment_120626174

Which part of her job do you think requires her to do immediately review the footage ? What do you think her role in relation to the investigation should be?

Referring to her current role. Obvious if she’s pulled into a formal review panel that changes.

Also she never said isn't going to watch it.

I was responding to your post that she was refusing to watch it - which I though was disingenuous, but pointing that out was not really the relevant part.

She has confirmed she has not watched the video, and when asked will she watch it, her response was “I don’t really intend to, no”. Take that as you will.

The public, especially those on the other side of the world, are off their heads if they think they’ve a right to see it.

If should largely be the families decision to publish it or not imo.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626438#Comment_120626438

Well that wasn't the premise of why you think she shouldn't watch it.

 She doesn't need to watch what may amount to video of somebody dying.

She is the head cop, it his her literal job to investigate potential criminality.

She confirmed to Sky News she will watch it, but she doesn't want an incomplete picture so she decided listening to the audio at this time was best. Illogical and nonsensical.

Now she is either a clinical moron, which I very much doubt or she is taking advice from a PR member who is.

Either way she has inflamed the public further and more importantly the ladies family.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626510#Comment_120626510

I didn’t say she shouldn’t watch it, I said there’s no reason for her to. I can’t help you if you can’t grasp the difference.

She’s the commissioner, it’s not her job to investigate crimes. It’s not even the job of her direct reports to investigate. She is multiple levels removed from that. That’s even before you consider that it’s an investigation into her own force, where it should independent police investigation.

In my first comment I said it was a stupid thing to say to the media. I think that’s obvious. But FYI moron stopped be a clinical diagnosis decades ago.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626038#Comment_120626038

No they didnt. I still wouldn't feel the need to cause them life threatening injuries when I could have simply backed away from them.

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626568#Comment_120626568

Could they not have caused harm to themselves if you just backed away?

BKtje

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626510#Comment_120626510

I don't think it is her literal job but as I don't know her position I can't say for sure. I would imagine her job is to manage the people and teams whose job it is to investigate however. She can then read the findings of the investigation and make a decision and at that time she may find it useful to watch the video or she may not.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626955#Comment_120626955

so your answer to that is to cause them life threatening injuries?

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120625877#Comment_120625877

You mention less drastic options. Poking the knife out of their hand with a sweeping brush came to mind. Using a sweeping brush to keep distance between me and them also came to mind. I'm pretty certain everyone here could come up with a less drastic option than using a tazer.

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627082#Comment_120627082

No im just wondering , cos your solution so far is to just back away.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626565#Comment_120626565

I didn’t say she shouldn’t watch it, I said there’s no reason for her to.

Well no, you said she shouldn't watch because it shows someone dying.

Again, she is the Commissioner, she will determine what course of action happens arising out of this.

But for some reason you are now saying she doesn't need to watch it, just because....

That's clearly nonsense.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120626568#Comment_120626568

You have not experienced the reality of what a dementia patient can do, until one has actually assaulted you. You may be surprised by the amount of force that lack of inhibitions can unleash.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627125#Comment_120627125

I'm not for one second defending the use of the tazer here as I don't know the full circumstances but it's possible that less drastic actions could have led to a similar outcome, i.e. a fractured skull. I'm not saying they would have had the same outcome, but could have had the same outcome.

Nowland's injury came as a result of hitting her head on the floor (see quote below) after being tazed. If someone had knocked the knife out of her hand with a brush, it's very possible that she would have fallen onto the floor too. Maybe in a slightly more controlled way but that can't be said for sure. If she was as feeble as described, it wouldn't take much more than a breeze to knock her down.

Police said Nowland received her injuries from striking her head on the floor, rather than directly from the stun gun’s debilitating electric shock.

https://apnews.com/article/taser-95-year-old-woman-australia-police-af221fd0e36e508ad8d25409ebbd8337

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627321#Comment_120627321

She had early unset dementia.

She was 95 and weighed 43 kilos and couldn't walk unaided.

What level of force are you suggesting she could "unleash".

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627293#Comment_120627293

For some reason the quote feature is a real struggle for you. Also conveniently feeds into your habit of misquoting people. Jus copy and paste instead of lying bud.

Well no, you said she shouldn't watch because it shows someone dying.

Nope, I didn't say that. I said she doesn't need to watch AND that it may amount to somebody dying. Two separate facts. There is no BECAUSE in there. Reading comprehension is a dying art. If I said she doesn't need to watch a body cam video, would you interpret that as she's doesn't need it because it is a bodycam video.

Again, she is the Commissioner, she will determine what course of action happens arising out of this.

Nope. They police announced an investigation almost immediately. The commissioner does need to review the footage to sign off on that.

But for some reason you are now saying she doesn't need to watch it, just because....

She doesn't need to watch it in the first post. Where have I change that? There are very strange things to makeup, my post are they for all to see.

She doesn't need to watch it, he job does not involved assessing the video. Despite what your claims, she is not the investigating officer. She probably hasn't investigated crime in a years. The sensationalist faux outrage that she didn't watch the footage is daily mirror pleb stuff.

paul71

A 5 year old in a padded spiderman outfit could have disarmed her easily, the utter garbage being spouted on this thread about a 45kilo 95 year old woman on a Zimmerframe being dangerous is laughable. In fact, its not laughable, it is disgusting.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627449#Comment_120627449

Well she could stab someone. There's that.

Again, me saying that isn't saying it's right to taze her. I'm just answering your question above.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627477#Comment_120627477

So the Commissioner does not need to watch the actual event that she will be making a determination on?

Are you being contrary just for the sake of it or do you actually believe that nonsense?